TH Procing

[Alhanelem]

I'm not going to read all that.

Well, that's your first problem. You should read it, and you should test your hypothesis.

I approached you on this topic in good faith. But if you're going to be dismissive and condecending, we can go back to the way things were where I disagree with you and you rant about how terrible I am instead of anything meaningful happening.

You are not going to get an official response (I guarantee it), so I gave you the information you needed too find out the answer yourself. If you want to keep hoping, by all means, but I"m being realistic. You are overthinking something that most likely is not as complex as you are suggesting, and you're implying another Treasure Hunter conspiracy that most likely does not exist.

I do not believe there is any hidden modifier (or even a random factor) to the rate at which TH procs apply. There is no research or evidence out there to suggest that this is the case, so if you think that it is, the burden is on you to find that out, because SE is most definitely not going to tell you. That's just the reality of the situation.

You want answers, but even though you have the ability to find the answers yourself, you're not willing to put in the work to do it.

[Gwydion]

Well, that's your first problem. You should read it, and you should test your hypothesis.

I approached you on this topic in good faith. But if you're going to be dismissive and condecending, we can go back to the way things were where I disagree with you and you rant about how terrible I am instead of anything meaningful happening.

You are not going to get an official response (I guarantee it), so I gave you the information you needed too find out the answer yourself. If you want to keep hoping, by all means, but I"m being realistic. You are overthinking something that most likely is not as complex as you are suggesting, and you're implying another Treasure Hunter conspiracy that most likely does not exist.

I do not believe there is any hidden modifier (or even a random factor) to the rate at which TH procs apply. There is no research or evidence out there to suggest that this is the case, so if you think that it is, the burden is on you to find that out, because SE is most definitely not going to tell you. That's just the reality of the situation.

You want answers, but even though you have the ability to find the answers yourself, you're not willing to put in the work to do it.

If the modifiers in question cause a non-linear change in TH proc rate, then the test you are suggesting is a complete waste of time. It's not "complex", it's a common practice to select multiple distribution tables in MMO games, so you're suggesting a testing method that has a high likelihood to be a waste of time.

I've waited 10 years for SE to answer this question, so I'll just keep waiting.

[Alhanelem]

If the modifiers in question cause a non-linear change in TH proc rate, then the test you are suggesting is a complete waste of time.

If you have any understanding about how math works, you would know that whether or not the relationship is non-linear, there is a relationship and that relationship can be tested. You are simply refusing to do work that, at worst, would give you a reasonable approximation if not the exact answer.

It's a big "if" in the first place, but even if your conclusion isn't accurate, it is not a "complete waste of time." The very worst thing that can happen is you find that the data you collected isn't useful which would prove your "what if" is the case. This would save anyone else the time spent testing it and would also point future people exploring this in the right direction. Testing things is NEVER a waste of time.

If I had any reason to believe that there is some super secret hidden complexity to how procs work, I would test for it. But I have no reason to do so because neither you nor anyone else has brought forth any evidence to suggest that this might be the case. All you have is a theory that's based on nothing but an argument you had with someone.

I can't tell you what to do with your time. I'm merely suggesting you actually do something about your alleged problem rather than wait for an answer that will never come, as you by your own admission claim to have been waiting a decade, and you will likely go to your grave not having the answer to this incredibly trivial issue of how to optimize proc rate. You will probably get all the drops you're optimizing for in the time it takes you to get an answer without testing. But hey, you do you. I'd love to help you find the answer, but you have to want to find it. And I mean that, if you want to explore it, I will be supportive of that. But you have to stop dismissing me out of hand.

[Dragoy]

If it helps, based on this earlier official comment on TH:

I would lean towards there being nothing modifying the rate at which you can apply TH procs.

They also wrote:

"However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value."

Maybe I'm missing something, but does this not pretty clearly mean that yes, the chance for triggering the value going up is affected by the difference between your treasure hunter level, and the one currently on the enemy?

It's also how it always felt to me in practice. For example, if the monster is currently at treasure hunter at level 4, and I go at it with 8, leveling it up will likely trigger much faster than it would when staying at 4.

Testing just how big of a difference there would be between 4 and 5 versus 4 and 8 would probably take a silly amount of time, and I'd definitely rather go for 8 in any case, but that's me. ^^

As for the critical question, I don't think that one has an effect on this, but I would not be surprised if it did...

Edit:

I guess I was a bit more sleepy than usual when previously writing here... the examples in particular, since of course the level would be set right away as high as 8 at most, instead of being triggered as an additional effect, so they don't quite work... heh.

[Alhanelem]

Maybe I'm missing something, but does this not pretty clearly mean that yes, the chance for triggering the value going up is affected by the difference between your treasure hunter level, and the one currently on the enemy?

This does indicate that there is a modifier involved, but it has nothing to do with any combat attributes.

While I'll be the first to agree that SE rarely takes the most logical path on anything, there just isn't any evidence to support combat stats influencing the rate of triggering TH procs.

As I explained and got brushed aside on, if crit modifies success rate in any way, it would be easily testable. Even if there is some fancy non-linear modifier which Gwydion is using to excuse himself from attempting to test this, if crits did anything at all for TH procing, there would be some difference between having a lot of crit and having very little. Even if he couldn't get precise results due to some super secret variable, there is still value in testing it (if we want to assume any such crit mod exists) You would require a large sample size... but all the more reason to start tracking it if it's something one cares about.

[Dihlyte]

They also wrote:

"However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value."

Maybe I'm missing something, but does this not pretty clearly mean that yes, the chance for triggering the value going up is affected by the difference between your treasure hunter level, and the one currently on the enemy?

It's also how it always felt to me in practice. For example, if the monster is currently at treasure hunter at level 4, and I go at it with 8, leveling it up will likely trigger much faster than it would when staying at 4.

Testing just how big of a difference there would be between 4 and 5 versus 4 and 8 would probably take a silly amount of time, and I'd definitely rather go for 8 in any case, but that's me. ^^

As for the critical question, I don't think that one has an effect on this, but I would not be surprised if it did...

It is very clearly stated by Square-Enix, that having a higher value of TH+ equipment increases the chance to raise the TH value.

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate. However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.

there is a concern that this would reduce the value of equipment with Treasure Hunter+ and also takes away all the hard work some players have put into maximize their Treasure Hunter, we would like to keep it as it is currently.

Or more simply put:

Mob TH Value = 10
THF TH value =9

Let's say the default TH proc rate is 15%
Now let's say TH Proc rate in this 10 to 9 ratio is 10%

So if you have TH+ Equipment Value of 14 then you will gain benefit of the full 15% chance to proc all the way until you reach 14. (The max proc value.)

If you have TH value total of 8 on a THF, you will have a **reduced** chance to proc above TH 8.

It is very clearly stated by SE themselves, that this is the case.

More TH will not increase the default "15%" chance, but having less than 14 will **lower** your chances to proc higher than your current value against the mob.

It is not complicated.

[Alhanelem]

It is very clearly stated by Square-Enix, that having a higher value of TH+ equipment increases the chance to raise the TH value.



Or more simply put:

Mob TH Value = 10
THF TH value =9

Let's say the default TH proc rate is 15%
Now let's say TH Proc rate in this 10 to 9 ratio is 10%

So if you have TH+ Equipment Value of 14 then you will gain benefit of the full 15% chance to proc all the way until you reach 14. (The max proc value.)

If you have TH value total of 8 on a THF, you will have a **reduced** chance to proc above TH 8.

It is very clearly stated by SE themselves, that this is the case.

More TH will not increase the default "15%" chance, but having less than 14 will **lower** your chances to proc higher than your current value against the mob.

It is not complicated.

For Gwydion, note this part:

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate.

Based on what Camate posted, the maximum TH proc rate is not influenced by anything: "This is a set rate."
This essentially says there is nothing else, like crit or anything, that modifies the rate. And even then the rate only changes if your TH+ isn't high enough.

You basically have your answer, and it's from an official source.

[Catmato]

This has always sounded like conflicting information.

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate. However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.

Adding TH+ does not increase the rate, but removing TH+ decreases the rate?

[Alhanelem]

This has always sounded like conflicting information.



Adding TH+ does not increase the rate, but removing TH+ decreases the rate?

I think it's just poorly worded. There is no variance in the rate as long as your TH+ total is higher than the current TH level on the target. That's what they mean when they say adding more won't increase the rate.

If you don't have the maximum possible TH value, the rate of increase will be the same from zero up to the highest level you have, and then it will decrease. It doesn't matter if you have TH+3 or TH+5, until the TH value reaches those numbers.

[Catmato]

I think it's just poorly worded. There is no variance in the rate as long as your TH+ total is higher than the current TH level on the target. That's what they mean when they say adding more won't increase the rate.

If you don't have the maximum possible TH value, the rate of increase will be the same from zero up to the highest level you have, and then it will decrease. It doesn't matter if you have TH+3 or TH+5, until the TH value reaches those numbers.

I still don't understand. As soon as you touch the enemy with whatever TH+ you have equipped, that's the TH level that's on the target until it upgrades. There's no way to be attacking with TH+5 while an enemy has anything less than TH+5 on it.