TH Procing

[Alhanelem]

I'm concerned that NA FFXI players simply don't Like posts because they are resigned due to a lack of engagement from SE.

Or maybe we don't like posts because... we don't like them enough to do so? I think you overestimate both the number of people that actually care about this enough to go to SE on the issue, and also the potential impact of any discovery made here. If any modifiers do exist, they are tiny, otherwise you would be able to observe clear and noticeable differences between people with different stats. And in my casual observation, I've never seen any.

Crazy thought. It might also have something to do with the fact that only a small number of people actually post here and we've all already made our feelings known.

Bumping wont get you replies. Particularly when it's already on the front page.

All this time I still don't see anything that needs addressing. SE provided us all the answers. There is no secret modifiers to TH proc chance. If you truly believe that there is, then test for them. It's not hard to do and even if there is an RNG modifier, you can still confirm whether or not a modifier exists at all. "it's too hard" is not an excuse.

But I don't see it as necessary. As far as we can tell from what SE has already told us, the only modifier is the difference between your TH level and the TH level you are trying to reach. Please, for everyone's sanity, stop just assuming that secret unknown modifiers must exist just because they exist for something else. I'm not trying to attack you here. But if you want to make these arguments, you need SOMETHING to back them up.

Also: Let's just pretend you're right for a moment: How is discovering that XYZ thing increases proc rate by 1% going to suddenly make THF more relevant? TH is TH, people will take it if they can get it. Tell FFXI players everywhere why they should care about this.

[Gwydion]

Or maybe we don't like posts because... we don't like them enough to do so? I think you overestimate both the number of people that actually care about this enough to go to SE on the issue, and also the potential impact of any discovery made here. If any modifiers do exist, they are tiny, otherwise you would be able to observe clear and noticeable differences between people with different stats. And in my casual observation, I've never seen any.

Crazy thought. It might also have something to do with the fact that only a small number of people actually post here and we've all already made our feelings known.

Bumping wont get you replies. Particularly when it's already on the front page.

All this time I still don't see anything that needs addressing. SE provided us all the answers. There is no secret modifiers to TH proc chance. If you truly believe that there is, then test for them. It's not hard to do and even if there is an RNG modifier, you can still confirm whether or not a modifier exists at all. "it's too hard" is not an excuse.

But I don't see it as necessary. As far as we can tell from what SE has already told us, the only modifier is the difference between your TH level and the TH level you are trying to reach. Please, for everyone's sanity, stop just assuming that secret unknown modifiers must exist just because they exist for something else. I'm not trying to attack you here. But if you want to make these arguments, you need SOMETHING to back them up.

Also: Let's just pretend you're right for a moment: How is discovering that XYZ thing increases proc rate by 1% going to suddenly make THF more relevant? TH is TH, people will take it if they can get it. Tell FFXI players everywhere why they should care about this.

SE's answers would tell us if we can prevent TH proc rate from decaying by increasing TH+ in gear by 1 for every TH proc we receive, above TH8. (i.e. Wear TH+5 to proc TH9 -> Wear TH+6, to proc TH+10, wear TH+7 to proc TH+11, etc.) OR Does simply wearing TH+11/12 cover all bases for TH proc rate decay?

[Alhanelem]

SE's answers would tell us if we can prevent TH proc rate from decaying by increasing TH+ in gear by 1 for every TH proc we receive, above TH8.

Maybe I'm out of touch with the available gear, but I thought 8 was the maximum TH attainable from gear?

Regardless, the comments from SE strongly imply that the only factor here is the difference between the current TH on the mob and your TH level. Nothing is "decaying," their statement simply means a larger difference between those two numbers means a smaller proc rate. Considering they said that this is the only factor, there is nothing you can do to prevent the rate from getting worse, other than them releasing gear with more TH on it. I still see no evidence that there are any other factors at work, and frankly, I think SE's explanation is plenty clear.

My previous question remains though- why is this important? Even if there was some way to max out the TH bonus faster, I don't see how this makes THF more relevant. If you want to maximize TH you'll find some way to do it. the time it takes is mostly not important unless the time limit of the content is preventing it. And even then, more drop rate is more drop rate and if people can make something drop easier, they're going to take a THF regardless of how easy maxing the TH is. THF also doesn't have any jobs that compete with it for this effect.

[Gwydion]

Combining everyone's input and converting Camate's words with sample data, I've constructed the following tables that I believe illustrate his point.

Assumptions:

1. Base TH Proc Rate is X. (Yellow)
2. Base TH Proc Rate never changes for a positive TH difference between player and monster.
3. Base TH Proc Rate shrinks when TH difference between player and mob is negative.
4. I have assumed a 10% shrinkage (rate of decay) for TH procs below just for illustration purposes.

Questions for SE that will help us players remain current in 2023:

1. Does critical hit rate increase base TH proc rate or subsequent TH proc rates?
2. Does the subsequent TH proc rate shrink when TH difference is negative as implied by Camate?
3. If so, by what amount does the TH proc rate shrink? Can player behavior influence this change outside of wearing more TH+ gear, as described below (and by Camate)?
4. Are personal drop loot (such as Peaches battle, macrocosmic orb campaign, etc). modified by their own Base TH proc rate and a separate rate of decay?

Thank you for so much in advance, even for just reading.

Based on yesterday's Primed for Vanadiel stream, this post got 13 likes, it would be nice if we could get an explanation from the development team about how to influence the rate at which TH decays.

[Alhanelem]

There is no way to influence the rate other than change the difference between your TH and the TH on the mob, or by using SATA which is known to provide a significant increase for that one attack.

SE has already answered this question. Even though people have argued after just a little eyeballing that crits might provide a miniscule rate increase (Those people claiming this is true say its maybe a 1-2% increase), all the crit in the world isn't going to change how people use THF, nor would it be worth doing to somehow make THF more relevant.

The far bigger issue than all of this is the simple fact that TH simply doesn't work at all in too many fights where loot comes out of chests with fixed ratios or personal rewards where TH can not be used. Frankly, if you are looking for ways to up your THF game and become more wanted/relevant in content, it's going to have to be through improving the job's damage potential.

THere is nothing out there that contradicts what SE previously said on this issue. All we have is a few people in the community who have made a suggestion of some other modifiers, but no one has provided enough data or proof that a reasonable person could conclude that such a thing probably exists.

[Catmato]

You are absolutely correct but you're wasting your time. Both of us have posted multiple times in this thread saying there's no evidence that anything but attacking with a total of TH+8 has any effect on the proc rate aside from SA/TA/Feint. They keep asking about modifiers that almost certainly aren't there or how much the TH proc rate lowers with progressive TH levels, which does happen but there's almost no need to know the exact math behind it; wear TH+8 to get the maximum effect (or max TH+ that you can wear if you think more than +8 makes a difference for some reason).

[Alhanelem]

Thanks. I just think the crux of this is really just, even if I was willing to think that these claims were true, a slight improvement to THF's speed of capping TH is not going to be some miracle cure for people wanting THF in content, because 1) a lot of content doesn't benefit from TH very much no matter how much you buff it up, and 2) THF needs to be better at other things too.

[Vold]

I mean I could put this to the test on lilith or something, with tens if not hundreds of thousands of attack rounds trying to cap TH before kills if anyone thinks the effort of tracking crit hits would be worthwhile but I am entirely content with just leaving on TH gear when farming anything. I can check on it. I just feel like it's a very unlikely outcome that crit hits improve proc rate. I think that idea maybe comes from SA procs which are always crits.

[Voidstorm]

I have the fix for TH. make it so any job with subjob THF can get up to TH8. that way a full set of volte can relegate THF to the dumpster forever.
Oh, wait, then in the subsequent update make main THF capable of TH12~14 directly. end this proc system.

[Gwydion]

Combining everyone's input and converting Camate's words with sample data, I've constructed the following tables that I believe illustrate his point.

Assumptions:

1. Base TH Proc Rate is X. (Yellow)
2. Base TH Proc Rate never changes for a positive TH difference between player and monster.
3. Base TH Proc Rate shrinks when TH difference between player and mob is negative.
4. I have assumed a 10% shrinkage (rate of decay) for TH procs below just for illustration purposes.

Questions for SE that will help us players remain current in 2023:

1. Does critical hit rate increase base TH proc rate or subsequent TH proc rates?
2. Does the subsequent TH proc rate shrink when TH difference is negative as implied by Camate?
3. If so, by what amount does the TH proc rate shrink? Can player behavior influence this change outside of wearing more TH+ gear, as described below (and by Camate)?
4. Are personal drop loot (such as Peaches battle, macrocosmic orb campaign, etc). modified by their own Base TH proc rate and a separate rate of decay?

Thank you for so much in advance, even for just reading.

Here's hoping that SE can answer the above questions for us. I would like to equip the correct armor, to prevent the TH proc rate from shrinking, as the mob's TH level increases. When I say correct armor, I mean, the stat that Camate alluded to, which is more TH+ AND...perhaps, any other stats that we players, might be unaware of. My humble and hopeful guess is that Critical Hit Rate also improves TH proc rate...but I'll never be able to confirm this myself. Please help us out SE!