Empyrean weapon needed adjustments

[Byrth]

It may be DNC's particular selection of gear (no Hecatomb), but Evisceration actually gains less than Dancing Edge from Sneak/Trick Attack so I don't see an incredibly compelling reason Evisceration would end up being a better WS for THF (outside Abyssea) unless they're really attack deficient against what they're fighting (like they were at 75 pre-pizza). Also, the number of attacks per round between Dancer and Thief isn't that different, so it doesn't really matter that Thief has Triple Attack.

Outside Abyssea:
THF: 16% Triple Attack, 13% Double Attack (AF3+2 head, Brutal, Epona's, Atheling, Twilight) = 1.43 Attacks per Twashtar swing
DNC: 3% Triple Attack, 33% Double Attack (The same minus the head, plus Saber Dance for 20% DA) = 1.38 Attacks per Twashtar swing

3.7% difference between the two, so not that big of a deal compared to the 29% increase in DPS from DNC's extra Dual Wield. So if SE was worried about ODD procs stacking up, they'd want to worry about Dancer more than Thief.

The reason Rudra's Storm sucks unstacked is definitely because SE didn't want THFs pulling off regular 4k WSs, but it wouldn't have killed them to give it a pDIF boost and that wouldn't have affected the SA/TA Rudra's *that* much.

[Rambus]

adding huge amounts to DEX not only boosted the effect of sneak attack but higher increase of CRT in evis.

maybe it was a 75 thing , now you have more double and tripple attack gear.

ether way to make that ws useful is not the ODD but change the WS. look at relics that effect can only happen first hit per round. Making ODD on DW would just be too much DoT , though ill be funny THF finally getting respect for DD.

remember thf has an offhand for tripple attack damage.

The reason Rudra's Storm sucks unstacked is definitely because SE didn't want THFs pulling off regular 4k WSs, but it wouldn't have killed them to give it a pDIF boost and that wouldn't have affected the SA/TA Rudra's *that* much.

SE overlooks a lot of things I think

[Byrth]

Oh yeah, I'm already assuming capped (24%) crit rate on Evisceration (well, that's what it came out to be because of all the DEX.) THF gets a little bit of a boost there thanks to their AF3+2 pants. Also, I said "Per twashtar swing" but really it was just "per any weapon swing." Dancer gets the same number of swings with their offhand too.

[Rambus]

Hmm not much I can say, would you be ok with a pdif boost to that ws but get rid of all ODD on double attack? (1 H and 2H)

have it trigger on first hit on each round only like relic hidden effect?

[Byrth]

I'm not really in to compromising. I'd like the WS to get a pDIF boost, and I'd like to have ODD proc on both hands. It seems unlikely that they'll change anything at all as a result of this thread, so compromising doesn't have a point.

Rudra's Storm has comparable mods and pDIF to Camlann's Torment, but it's a dagger so it starts with ~80 less base damage. Blade: Hi has higher fTP, can crit, and Kannagi starts with higher base damage. The only reason Rudra's is such a weak WS is that SE assumes THFs will be SA/TAing it 100% of the time so the 3.0 fTP they did give it is assumed to be 100% crit rate.

[Rambus]

If SE is going to make many job use weapon x it should be good for them -.-

I hope one day SE would do drastic changes to all 3 to rebalance them and it does not hurt to try to give suggestions to do that.

I am not an expert on melee damage like i am with mage so i am using my limited knowledge while reflecting on yours.

how do you feel about dnc mythic in its current state?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

It still has nothing to do with a game balance issue.

[Byrth]

If SE is going to make many job use weapon x it should be good for them -.-

I hope one day SE would do drastic changes to all 3 to rebalance them and it does not hurt to try to give suggestions to do that.

I am not an expert on melee damage like i am with mage so i am using my limited knowledge while reflecting on yours.

how do you feel about dnc mythic in its current state?

Well, I don't know what the DNC Mythic does because all the Mythic owners I know either quit or stopped responding. Pyrrhic Kleos is really a pretty competitive option as a WS outside Abyssea, but the same problem exists. DD Mythics are good in two situations:
Case 1) The job trait/ability enhancements on the mythics make them worth using - As far as I can tell, Steps with AF2 feet and AF1 hands are no less accurate than normal melee swings, so Step Acc on a weapon (or through merits) is a royal waste of time. The level 85 Mythic was assumed to give 5 Finishing moves per Step, so the level 90 Mythic . . . still gives 5 Finishing moves per step? Definitely awesome, but not worth the DPS sacrifice of a mythic from a DD perspective really.
Case 2) The OAT from AM3 makes the mythic worth using. - This is true for Ryunohige, Liberator, etc. Unfortunately, OAT procs the same way ODD procs (mythic hand only). Because Dancer has plenty of Double Attack already, OAT only provides .26 Attacks per attack round outside Abyssea (less inside). So you spend 300 TP every 3 minutes to attack 9% more often. Baaarely worth it, if it is at all from a DD perspective even at capped delay reduction.

I think I would like this dagger for healing though, so I've been working on the pre-reqs (but I will not be attempting Alex unless they add more sources.) TP gain is hardly an issue, and won't be until we get a Waltz recast rework, so I could probably go Terpsi/Phurba when healing on DNC/SAM. TP tends to pile up when healing, so 300TP every 3 minutes isn't that bad of a deal if I choose to use it that way. I'd have to play around with it and see what seems to work best. At the moment I'm mostly doing it because it's one of the last rare dancer things left to get.

[Rambus]

Well, I don't know what the DNC Mythic does because all the Mythic owners I know either quit or stopped responding. Pyrrhic Kleos is really a pretty competitive option as a WS outside Abyssea, but the same problem exists. DD Mythics are good in two situations:
Case 1) The job trait/ability enhancements on the mythics make them worth using - As far as I can tell, Steps with AF2 feet and AF1 hands are no less accurate than normal melee swings, so Step Acc on a weapon (or through merits) is a royal waste of time. The level 85 Mythic was assumed to give 5 Finishing moves per Step, so the level 90 Mythic . . . still gives 5 Finishing moves per step? Definitely awesome, but not worth the DPS sacrifice of a mythic from a DD perspective really.
Case 2) The OAT from AM3 makes the mythic worth using. - This is true for Ryunohige, Liberator, etc. Unfortunately, OAT procs the same way ODD procs (mythic hand only). Because Dancer has plenty of Double Attack already, OAT only provides .26 Attacks per attack round outside Abyssea (less inside). So you spend 300 TP every 3 minutes to attack 9% more often. Baaarely worth it, if it is at all from a DD perspective even at capped delay reduction.

I think I would like this dagger for healing though, so I've been working on the pre-reqs (but I will not be attempting Alex unless they add more sources.) TP gain is hardly an issue, and won't be until we get a Waltz recast rework, so I could probably go Terpsi/Phurba when healing on DNC/SAM. TP tends to pile up when healing, so 300TP every 3 minutes isn't that bad of a deal if I choose to use it that way. I'd have to play around with it and see what seems to work best. At the moment I'm mostly doing it because it's one of the last rare dancer things left to get.

Was wondering what that ment, one step for 5 Finishing moves? woudln't that allow a lot of solo scing?

[Byrth]

Was wondering what that ment, one step for 5 Finishing moves? woudln't that allow a lot of solo scing?

It allows the same number of self-skillchains, because you're limited by Reverse Flourish recast. The main thing it does is potentially allows for the use of other Flourishes without interrupting your Reverse Flourish rotation. Downside, of course, is that DD flourishes are second rate. Striking is good with the AF3+2 body, but only if your WS has high first-hit fTP... which is pretty much only Rudra's for Dancer.

If I am assuming the "Enhances Steps" correctly, the main benefit of the Mythic is that you use Steps half as often and can still maintain your Reverse Flourish rotation (less JA delay and TP spent, so self-skillchains come at less of a cost). If you're using Steps to Debuff, you'd need to use Steps just as often.