Can the Devs allow Dual Wielding Shields?

[kingfury]

I'm liking this, it's good to see well-presented new ideas once in a while and a dual shield system would be pretty interesting as a combat style, maybe Square Enix could consider a new job being released with this combat style as a grounding, I'm thinking 'Guardian' personally. It'd be like a non-magical Paladin with the ability to buff it's own defence as well as those around it.

I'd like to see more multi-job integrations though, Meteor for example, is increased for every Black Mage that casts simultaneously, so why not have something similar for this but from a defensive standpoint? How about a Testudo (Turtle Shell) formation like the Ancient Roman army practiced? Or a Schiltron formation used by spear wielders in Medieval times?

Personally I think it's something Squeenix hasn't explored yet and it's a big area for new innovative ideas. Plus the idea of using dual shields could easily be integrated into something just like this.

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Thanks for the feedback and awesome idea!

Initially, I did want to pitch this concept as a new job class (since I do honestly believe it could be fleshed out to be a unique form of a combat style), but I figured that would be far more ambitious for the upcoming expansion than simply creating the weapon itself to be used by all the current jobs that would get the most out of it's play style. However, that doesn't mean the Devs couldn't create a history around the weapon itself upon implementation that speaks of a lost warrior class that used these unique weapons primarily in battle. Heck, I'd be ecstatic if a new type of beastmen in the expansion lands still prefer to use this possible "weapon of old".

Honestly though, aside from the cool factor of dual-wielding two "death spheres" in battle, if the Dev team did invest the work into bringing this weapon to life in FFXI, it would kind of behoove them to put their own wonderful style and flare all around it as only Final Fantasy developers can. If that would mean a new job class, then yeah, I would unlock this class in a heartbeat... though I would most likely (depending on the job abilities and traits) swap it in as a fun new sub for WAR since I'm a little obsessed with the variety of that job

Truly awesome concept you've suggested with the team built "defensive potential" of such a weapon. I would imagine the strategy being insane around pulling off something as cool as this mid-battle, but the outcome would totally justify the means lol. Perhaps a minimum of 2 players dual-wielding these weapons (so 4 shields) could perform a simplified Testudo that protects a small to medium sized area around themselves. Furthermore, 3-4 dual-wielding players (that's 6-8 shields) could then increase both the potency of the party defense and the protection circumference around themselves. I'd love see this in real time action for sure.

Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem to find any information anywhere about a fighting style composed of dual-wielding melee shields. Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not sure if there has ever been a fighting style composed of using two shields primarily as both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out that such a fighting style ever existed.

[Nawesemo]

2 handed shield?

Just fluttered across my mind, I still think is silly. But a 2handed shield/weapon with buku +block/parry , and latent silence?

[Siviard]

Anyone ever play Rygar? The main weapon was something called Diskarmor, looked similar to these concepts, but also had a relatively large attack distance. Something between melee and ranged attack.

I only played the original Rygar on the old 8-bit NES but I get the idea. Also, wasn't there an arcade version of Rygar? I remember seeing one but never got to play it.

[kingfury]

I doubt this idea is worth an entire new weaponskill or job, but I could see it work as a gimmicky H2H weapon like Vampiric Claws or Birdbanes.

Armguard (R)(E)
(Hand-to-hand)All Races
DMG:+30 Delay:+84
"Shieldguard"
Lv.99 WAR / MNK / RDM / DRK / PUP

Shieldguard : allows hits to be shielded using Guard skill, but disables guarding.

Or perhaps as a subslot item for H2H weapons:
Armguard
(Grip) All Races
Chance to block incoming hits +5%
Lv. 99 MNK/PUP

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Interesting suggestion for sure, thanks for feeback /

I can see how the initial concept could come off as simply a new melee weapon, but it would actually be a new battle style entirely adding far more than just a cool aesthetic to our current battle types. It most likely wouldn't fit for Monks current H2H system since there is no "slashing, or bash-like" attacks in the standard H2H arsenal. It does however have backhand blow, and shoulder tackle which would feel just right with a shield in hand while executing, but those are about the only two that would feel right.

It's hard to explain the fluidity and ferocity I see in my head of how it would look dual-wielding these shields without damn near animating the action unfortunately, but I'll give it a shot.

Dual-wielding Shield battle strategy (breakdown)

The combatant wielding two of these shields would have them firmly in front of their body (similar to a boxer) ever ready to anticipate what the battle will throw at them. If an attack launched at them, they instinctively either move to block the attack or position themselves to parry/counter the attack to gain the offensive advantage. Staying very fluid all the while, they are patient to wait for the perfect opportunity to unleash their quick and painful assault on their enemies using a barrage of close quarters blows. The advantage of the two melee shields presents it's benefits by allowing an assortment of chained combo strikes to the combatant during an offensive maneuver. Rarely would an offensive assault end with one solo strike, but rather at the very least a combination of a strike and bash, two strikes, or even two bash attacks. Even a third or fourth strike would be common given the opportunity. Thus making this style a very fast paced dance of both attack and tactical stringing of melee type blows.
On the defensive side, an enemy would be hard pressed to find an opening readily available to exploit. The very attempt to strike at the shield wielding combatant is a sure chance at provoking an opposing shield to the face in retaliation. Constantly protected at either close range or afar, the combatant can rush to in to tank a rampaging enemy or retreat to protect the softer party members with ease. Using an handful of unique rushing attacks, the combatant can barrel fiercely into the enemy to gain it's attention and hold it with it's array of punishing defensive and offensive maneuvers.
On top of all this variety, the shield wielding combatant has a plethora of damaging and enfeebling weapon skills at their disposal. Multi-hit weapon skills would be at the forefront of these punishing skills while a variety of bashing and rushing skills would follow. The range of these skills would offer a steady and abundant selection of tools to the wielder to properly handle keeping the attention of any enemy.

I hope that helps pain a better picture since I don't know how well I could animate all that in a timely manner lol.

[Yokai]

Honestly, Kingfury, you have no trouble communicating your vision.

The problem is taking your vision and implementing it in a fitting manner without disrupting or destroying the existing game balance. If dual-shield-wield is too good, nobody uses anything else, and that's worse than not adding this in the first place.

SO the trick is this: how do we implement this, in a balanced manner, without taxing the dev team's time overly much? And what can we do before beginning development to make certain that it's worth the effort? THere's also the question of opportunity cost - what are we okay with the dev team NOT doing while they're working on this?

It's a serious question - are you okay with, for example, Seekers of Adoulin getting pushed back a month while the dev team develops and tests a shield weapon? Or, more likely, a delay in the release of new or revised weapon skills, or the release of the play-as-a-monster system, or... well, you get the idea. Similar is the question of where in the task list this should go? It's safe to say the new expansion has top priority right now (since it will sell at a profit, as opposed to being a free patch, nevermind the size and scope of it compared to anything else out since WotG,) but one look at the FFXI road map shows the dev team has a lot on their plate already.

I'd like to know what your thoughts on addressing these concerns would be, Kingfury:
* Your idea sounds great, but what keeps it balanced with existing weapons (and shields)? Why would anyone dual-wield swords or axes, or use a single-handed weapon with a normal shield, instead of your new dual-shields, on a regular basis?
* How many new assets would need to be developed for this? New graphics, new animations, new sounds, etc.
* Where in the development roadmap would you place development for this? Right after Seekers of Adoulin? (Okay, this is an unfair question because we don't yet know the 2013 roadmap and the 2012 roadmap is full.) Please consider what the dev team may be working on next year.

Looking forward to your response.

[Calintzpso]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvZSR2QpSoU

Still reading through this but to bring it to a middle ground like some have said might be out of SE's reach in this day and age.

Flyff has a class known as Yo-Yo fighters of acrobats. Tossing shield like shurikens that return to you. Think Xena Warrior princess but with spiked shields. The time and effort with reweighing the shields in game, the motions etc. for SE to add this or your idea however is probably to great.

However I could be wrong....SE, their PR department and translation team for FFXI sure like to take from others....Rift....Rifts....Magica Madoka Key Item bushin thing...Abbyssea heralded as the 'Cataclysm' heck I'm almost betting on voidwalkers or voids in general as being inspired by guilty crown.

[Yokai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvZSR2QpSoU

However I could be wrong....SE, their PR department and translation team for FFXI sure like to take from others....Rift....Rifts....Magica Madoka Key Item bushin thing...Abbyssea heralded as the 'Cataclysm' heck I'm almost betting on voidwalkers or voids in general as being inspired by guilty crown.

You have things a bit mixed up here on some points. 'Bushin' is a Japanese term that far predates any anime. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushin ) and Vision of Abyssea came out six months before WoW's expansion - I think it's safe to say development on Abyssea began before there was public word of Cataclysm. And 'Rift' is a dictionary term that's far older than the game Rifts. Where do you think Rifts got the term?

And the idea of 'voidwalkers' is old, too. Pre-Lovecraft.

[kingfury]

Honestly, Kingfury, you have no trouble communicating your vision.

The problem is taking your vision and implementing it in a fitting manner without disrupting or destroying the existing game balance. If dual-shield-wield is too good, nobody uses anything else, and that's worse than not adding this in the first place.

SO the trick is this: how do we implement this, in a balanced manner, without taxing the dev team's time overly much? And what can we do before beginning development to make certain that it's worth the effort? THere's also the question of opportunity cost - what are we okay with the dev team NOT doing while they're working on this?

It's a serious question - are you okay with, for example, Seekers of Adoulin getting pushed back a month while the dev team develops and tests a shield weapon? Or, more likely, a delay in the release of new or revised weapon skills, or the release of the play-as-a-monster system, or... well, you get the idea. Similar is the question of where in the task list this should go? It's safe to say the new expansion has top priority right now (since it will sell at a profit, as opposed to being a free patch, nevermind the size and scope of it compared to anything else out since WotG,) but one look at the FFXI road map shows the dev team has a lot on their plate already.

I'd like to know what your thoughts on addressing these concerns would be, Kingfury:
* Your idea sounds great, but what keeps it balanced with existing weapons (and shields)? Why would anyone dual-wield swords or axes, or use a single-handed weapon with a normal shield, instead of your new dual-shields, on a regular basis?
* How many new assets would need to be developed for this? New graphics, new animations, new sounds, etc.
* Where in the development roadmap would you place development for this? Right after Seekers of Adoulin? (Okay, this is an unfair question because we don't yet know the 2013 roadmap and the 2012 roadmap is full.) Please consider what the dev team may be working on next year.

Looking forward to your response.

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Awesome questions Lets address these.

• Melee Shields = Too Good?
  This is a tough question to answer at this concept stage without fully realizing the full scope of how effective such a versatile and unorthodox weapon could be within our current battle structure. The things that I can foresee is that this weapon would only effect a handful of jobs in which shield wielding is an equipment choice, and in only two really valid scenarios. While these weapons are being classified as "Weapons and as Shields" and would have a new combat skill category added upon it's implementation (perhaps something called "Battleshield"), I would imagine having native Shield Skill would be necessary to wield them. The Jobs Shield skill touches:

  

  Firstly, PLD, WAR, and WHM (WHM relatively speaking) are at the top of the list to be realistic clients to actually take advantage of these melee shields in actual high level battle situations. Not to say the other 3 jobs can't equip the shields for the fun of it, but the top 3 would have the best chance of getting the most out of using them without having to stack high amounts of Shield Skill/Accuracy equipment + Accuracy Food.
  
  The two main situations these jobs would ever equip these new weapons would be 1. Standard-Moderate melee damage potential, and 2. Defensive and tanking opportunities. These weapons would not out damage a dedicated Damage Dealing weapon like for example a Great Axe, but similar to an Axe would offer decent damage potential. As for the Defensive pluses, all three of the top 3 jobs could benefit from swapping in these weapons to enhance their defensive effectiveness based on the roles they play in FFXI. Where PLDs and WARs would of course equip these for their "front line" job roles supplying them both damage dealing and defensive options, but the WHM could possibly swap these in should the monster come running in their direction all of a sudden and possibly effectively tactically survive a bit longer if they're skilled enough. Therefore, I don't see them as being over powered in comparison to what's currently available weapon wise, but just a new option category in the lineup selection for dealing damage while balancing defensive strategies.
  
• Importance to the Development?
  If these weapons were developed to be truly potent tools to the Tank classes in this game, then their importance could be considered very high. This possibility is of course dependent on what solutions the Dev team decide to employ to remedy the current Enmity situation that's plaguing the one job Designed from the beginning to actually tank and hold enmity (PLD). These weapons could be coupled with whatever that solution would be as a fresh new option never before offered to the player base to manage tanking effectively outside of the traditional Sword and standard shield. If properly planned, the weapon skills and stats shipped with the introduction of these weapons could alter the way tanks accomplish their roles.
  
  With that in mind, since the development team are actively looking for solutions to the enmity problem alongside developing content for Seekers of Adoluin, one could assume the development resources and testing of this weapon could be started as soon as possible. The Devs have expressed that this is a problem they would like to solve (assuming as soon as possible), so even if they chose a simpler solution like raising the enmity cap, adding another way PLDs manage that enmity would be nothing negative in terms of intuitive development. New and useful content is always at the forefront of the Devs priorities so if they can add a deeper and more intuitive experience for a troubled job class, then it's a win.

• What assets would be needed
• Programming would be the 1st hurdle. Combining both attacking functionality with defensive functionality into one weapon effectively could be a challenge, but shouldn't be impossible. Under the hood, it could be simply coded as an axe that has the ability to function and look like a shield as well.
• New melee/weapon skill animations for all playable races.
• Adding the actual new weapons to the game and a decent variety to choose from with stats and such.
• Adding the combat skill to the system
• Sounds and graphical effects currently used with other weapons could be borrowed for this new weapon. No reason to not use our current battle effects for this new weapon.
• Testing the weapons effectiveness in practical battle situations.

I would say that all the normal stuff that is needed for any true-to-life "NEW" FFXI content would be needed for these weapons to be made a reality. However, as I stated above, this content could harbor more game play depth as well as help to remedy a fading jobs woes rather than just being a frivolous new toy to play with. You have to remember, the Dev team worked very hard to bring us job specific emotes not too long ago that brought zero game play functionality to FFXI players other than just something to occasionally do in town while being bored. I would say that this weapon could effectively be produced at a steady pace with the current expansion content or following the expansions release since it could accomplish some valid things for players.

Again, all great questions

[Duvemora]

Reading the topic title, I thought it was silly... until I saw the drawings. That. is. awesome. I want this. Don't really care if it makes sense, or if it's balanced, or whatever, I want it!

I also want the shirtless dudes with dual shields running around in the game too.

[Leonardus]

Hey Kingfury, interesting idea.

In reality, the amount of work needed to create a new weapon class seems astronomical. Also, going by Shield Skill, only paladins, and maybe warriors will get any use out of this weapon. How are you going to explain a battleshield to the knights of Sandoria? A paladin without his sword? A warrior? Okay. A Thief or Red Mage? Odd. A Beastmaster? Even when we stay back and let the pet fight, we're not exactly known for our fine taste in shieldry (Unless you happen to be a gigas).

(So for starters, you'd have to pass off this weapon as something truly unique, like some kind of rare far-western weapon that hasn't yet reached the middlelands or something.)

Not trying to be negative. Myself, I'd like to see some actual flails someday...