Can the Devs allow Dual Wielding Shields?

[kingfury]

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

It seems like an interesting idea anyways, but I can't imagine it working with any current classes so a new class may be the better choice, loving the new concepts and animations by the way, what software do you use, Photoshop for the artwork I'm guessing but what about the animation?

Also, I've started a thread just around multi-user abilities and formations, if you'd like to have a look feel free. ^^

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Awesome Info, Thanks! /

This weapon would be best suited in the hands of a PLD due to their A+ combat skill rating in shield so they would see the most defense response during battle. The damage side of things would depend on the weapon skills and would be a dangerous weapon in the hands of a job like WAR with all of the punishing job traits and abilities available to them. It was designed to be similar to a high end Axe, so any job that built a decent melee gear set could get the most out of this weapon. A job class especially created for this weapon would rock though lol... even though I'm a little bias

Yep, I'm using Photoshop for both illustration and the animating (using CS6 but I'm sure as long as you have timeline functionality you can transfer layer content to it and create your animated gif).

Very cool thread also, I dig the multi-Provoke ^.^/ (I've been wanting a Provokga for years <.< )

[airsparrowhawk]

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Awesome Info, Thanks! /

This weapon would be best suited in the hands of a PLD due to their A+ combat skill rating in shield so they would see the most defense response during battle. The damage side of things would depend on the weapon skills and would be a dangerous weapon in the hands of a job like WAR with all of the punishing job traits and abilities available to them. It was designed to be similar to a high end Axe, so any job that built a decent melee gear set could get the most out of this weapon. A job class especially created for this weapon would rock though lol... even though I'm a little bias

Yep, I'm using Photoshop for both illustration and the animating (using CS6 but I'm sure as long as you have timeline functionality you can transfer layer content to it and create your animated gif).

Very cool thread also, I dig the multi-Provoke ^.^/ (I've been wanting a Provokga for years <.< )

My pleasure, I just love seeing ideas like this come to fruition, I'm an Animation/Games Art graduate with a bit of history in modding, games ideas generation and the like so I appreciate how hard it is to concept a good idea, also I suck at drawing off the top of my head so I appreciate the amount of effort that goes into these concepts.

And I can see a PLD or WAR using this, definately, but WAR's always struck me a bit more like a 'Berserker' class, a hit-as-hard-as-you-can-despite-damage class whilst PLD's always been a bit more of a 'Magic Shield' class, the physical element of the PLD never stuck for me (at least from an art style and lore perspective anyway). It's the reason I've suggested a complete new job for this class. Also, after seeing the last concept you posted with the attachable shield, I had flashbacks of The Avengers and Captain America's mystical boomerang shield (I don't know how that works either), not sure if it would work but I hope the thought of that being in Vana'diel gave you a bit of a giggle anyway.

Ah you do it all in Photoshop? Animation and all? Cool stuff, back in college we were taught to do it in another Adobe product that hooked into Photoshop, but I can't remember the name for the life of me, I suppose nowadays it's integrated the two together hey? I like to think I'm pretty all right on my 3D animation, wish I could animate 2D stuff to the same degree but because I always did 2D animation in flash, it seemed so long-winded (although the 2D guys on my course used to tell me Flash was easier and more flexible once you got the hang of it).

And thanks! After making that first post in your thread I just had to explore the possibility and see what people thought, I'd illustrate it if I could but I'm not really any good with my drawing-from-imagination skills, I need something to base my ideas on, I never had any problem with life drawing but from the top of my head it's a no-no. Do you mind if I ask if you use references when you draw things at all or is it all from the top of your head?

Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that
hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem
to find any information anywhere about a fighting
style composed of dual-wielding melee shields.
Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or
typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not
sure if there has ever been a fighting
style composed of using two shields primarily as
both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one
badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where
the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out
that such a fighting style ever existed.

Also after going over this point I can think of two examples in games but they're really loose on the 'dual-shield' or just shield combat idea, the only things that come to mind are:



Vexen from Kingdom Hearts who uses a single large shield on it's own and the element of ice to fight.



And the Skirmisher Murmillo from Halo: Reach, they use plasma pistols primarily to fight but utilise
dual small shields on either arm to deflect shots.

[Mathieu]

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

[airsparrowhawk]

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

Adding spikes to a shield, weapon or armour in general will rarely be purely decorative, large spikes at least will add a considerable amount of weight to anything and can easily make a tool impractical if they're just slapped on carelessly for decoration and/or intimidation tactics, good combat has always been about efficiency, if there's any spikes involved, they'll nearly always be intended to be used in combat.

I'm not stating they'd bash their enemy with a large shield to cause damage, but a small shield with a sharpened edge could easily be used to take a swipe at an off-guard enemy and make a deep cut with ease, take a razor blade, even with the slowest movement you can easily cut through things, so if a stroke with a sharpened shield is delivered, slow or quick, will cut into exposed enemies quite easily.

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

I'm assuming by "Punch" shields you mean Bucklers? They're useless for the most part but a shot to the head with that can easily be a killing blow, unarmed boxers knock each other out all the time in the ring, if you're wielding a weighted metal object that covers your hand when you do that, you could easily crack bones with a well-placed shot. But I will agree that traditional usage is just for deflecting weapons rather than dealing blows.

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

It does make very little sense but then again so does the idea of a Buster Sword in FFVII, a sword that size just isn't practical for movement and supposing someone actually could swing it, it'd tire that person out incredibly quickly regardless of physical strength or stamina. Still it's a beloved weapon and the great sword by extension takes from this as do a variety of fantasy zanbato.

This is a fantasy world we're talking about, you're allowed to break the rules of physics and practicality a little in return for artistic flair and well-thought out design plans to correct any flaws that would be apparent in the real world. The range of motion is no less short than that of a dagger so range on it's own isn't really an issue. Also, I'm curious, where else has it been done before?

[kingfury]

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

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Awww now that's no fun if you drain all the "Fantasy" out of the "Final Fantasy"! ^.^

As it stands, I honestly can't say how "ludicrous" dual wielding shields would actually be in real life if done properly because I can't find any real world reference to study to make that conclusion lol. All I can do is fabricate the action via animation to try and simulate the fighting style's movement and potential at this point. If I had to put logic to it, the shields wouldn't be overly heavy, and would allow the user the mobility to switch from defensive stances to offensive stances very quickly. The edges could vary from sharp to blunt, but would be used to cause impact and slashing damage if used to jab an opponent or slice an opponent quickly. So long as the shields were fixed to the users arm in a very sturdy manner, the damage they could inflict based on the point of hitting their opponent could be very critical.

However, there's plenty of stuff currently in FFXI that logically/practically makes zero since. For example, a Tarutaru's "Great Sword or Great Axe" by scientific rules and boundaries wouldn't hurt nearly as much as a Galka's Great Sword or Great Axe. Mass and weight just wouldn't work in their favor to put a big hurt on anything but something smaller than them or someones ankles realistically But that's the fun of it all right there. Even though it doesn't make complete "practical" since, it's fun to watch a 3 foot character maul a 5 story monster with a weapon that's the size of a Katana. It's "ludicrous", but it's a fantasy game, so it's alright to relax and enjoy the show. ^.^/

[Kristal]

I doubt this idea is worth an entire new weaponskill or job, but I could see it work as a gimmicky H2H weapon like Vampiric Claws or Birdbanes.

Armguard (R)(E)
(Hand-to-hand)All Races
DMG:+30 Delay:+84
"Shieldguard"
Lv.99 WAR / MNK / RDM / DRK / PUP

Shieldguard : allows hits to be shielded using Guard skill, but disables guarding.

Or perhaps as a subslot item for H2H weapons:
Armguard
(Grip) All Races
Chance to block incoming hits +5%
Lv. 99 MNK/PUP

[kingfury]

I doubt this idea is worth an entire new weaponskill or job, but I could see it work as a gimmicky H2H weapon like Vampiric Claws or Birdbanes.

Armguard (R)(E)
(Hand-to-hand)All Races
DMG:+30 Delay:+84
"Shieldguard"
Lv.99 WAR / MNK / RDM / DRK / PUP

Shieldguard : allows hits to be shielded using Guard skill, but disables guarding.

Or perhaps as a subslot item for H2H weapons:
Armguard
(Grip) All Races
Chance to block incoming hits +5%
Lv. 99 MNK/PUP

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Interesting suggestion for sure, thanks for feeback /

I can see how the initial concept could come off as simply a new melee weapon, but it would actually be a new battle style entirely adding far more than just a cool aesthetic to our current battle types. It most likely wouldn't fit for Monks current H2H system since there is no "slashing, or bash-like" attacks in the standard H2H arsenal. It does however have backhand blow, and shoulder tackle which would feel just right with a shield in hand while executing, but those are about the only two that would feel right.

It's hard to explain the fluidity and ferocity I see in my head of how it would look dual-wielding these shields without damn near animating the action unfortunately, but I'll give it a shot.

Dual-wielding Shield battle strategy (breakdown)

The combatant wielding two of these shields would have them firmly in front of their body (similar to a boxer) ever ready to anticipate what the battle will throw at them. If an attack launched at them, they instinctively either move to block the attack or position themselves to parry/counter the attack to gain the offensive advantage. Staying very fluid all the while, they are patient to wait for the perfect opportunity to unleash their quick and painful assault on their enemies using a barrage of close quarters blows. The advantage of the two melee shields presents it's benefits by allowing an assortment of chained combo strikes to the combatant during an offensive maneuver. Rarely would an offensive assault end with one solo strike, but rather at the very least a combination of a strike and bash, two strikes, or even two bash attacks. Even a third or fourth strike would be common given the opportunity. Thus making this style a very fast paced dance of both attack and tactical stringing of melee type blows.
On the defensive side, an enemy would be hard pressed to find an opening readily available to exploit. The very attempt to strike at the shield wielding combatant is a sure chance at provoking an opposing shield to the face in retaliation. Constantly protected at either close range or afar, the combatant can rush to in to tank a rampaging enemy or retreat to protect the softer party members with ease. Using an handful of unique rushing attacks, the combatant can barrel fiercely into the enemy to gain it's attention and hold it with it's array of punishing defensive and offensive maneuvers.
On top of all this variety, the shield wielding combatant has a plethora of damaging and enfeebling weapon skills at their disposal. Multi-hit weapon skills would be at the forefront of these punishing skills while a variety of bashing and rushing skills would follow. The range of these skills would offer a steady and abundant selection of tools to the wielder to properly handle keeping the attention of any enemy.

I hope that helps pain a better picture since I don't know how well I could animate all that in a timely manner lol.

[kingfury]

It's hard to explain the fluidity and ferocity I see in my head of how it would look dual-wielding these shields without damn near animating the action unfortunately, but I'll give it a shot.

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I had to try

[Vivivivi]

Anyone ever play Rygar? The main weapon was something called Diskarmor, looked similar to these concepts, but also had a relatively large attack distance. Something between melee and ranged attack.

[Siviard]

Anyone ever play Rygar? The main weapon was something called Diskarmor, looked similar to these concepts, but also had a relatively large attack distance. Something between melee and ranged attack.

I only played the original Rygar on the old 8-bit NES but I get the idea. Also, wasn't there an arcade version of Rygar? I remember seeing one but never got to play it.