Can the Devs allow Dual Wielding Shields?

[Lushipur]

in the first FF you could do that, mostly for max def :P

btw king...your drawing of taru always make me laugh :P

[Fynlar]

Speaking as someone with Aegis and Ochain, I have to support this.

[tyrantsyn]

At first I was like "wth is this $h!t"

Than I see the illustration's and I'm like "Oh yeah, that could work"

Best thing about your suggestion's King, you always make them feel more feasible with the art work.

[kingfury]

At first I was like "wth is this $h!t"

Than I see the illustration's and I'm like "Oh yeah, that could work"

Best thing about your suggestion's King, you always make them feel more feasible with the art work.

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lol Thanks /
Yeah, as an illustrator I've come to understand that a lot of the time all it takes is a little bit of visual dressing to help convey the concept to make it clear for the audience

[Yokai]

I strongly suspect that SE will not implement this as a dual-wielded weapon system, or as a dual-shield system wherein both shields are processed by the game system in the same manner as a single shield is now.

However, if SE did decide to allow dual-shield wielding, I would bet they would do so by creating a 'Shield' weapon type (more akin to Swords than existing Shields).

Main-slot Shields would primarily do Blunt damage, and would generally have DEF+ as one of their stats. Their damage would likely be low, probably comparable to Clubs or -both more likely and more depressing - Wands.*

The Weapon Skills that this Shield Weapon category would provide would probably have primary staples including Stun or Knockback effects, possibly with at least one higher-level WS including a Terrorize effect to represent an enhanced stun. Most Weapon Skills would have VIT as either their sole or primary stat modifier. I'd bet there would be at least one WS that derives its damage solely from the Defense stat, similar to BLU's Cannonball.

I would also bet that most HQ shield weapons would include Shield Skill bonuses, and the most common attribute bonus would be VIT+.

Shield Weapons may or may not trigger parries. I'm not sure if they should or not - mechanically, that's the easiest way to adapt existing mechanics to simulate using the primary-hand Shield being used to block attacks. However, thematically it's very strange to think of a person blocking attacks with one shield while parrying attacks with another shield.
This issue could probably be sidestepped if the Defense and/or Shield Skill bonuses of main-hand shields were sufficiently potent.




I know it would be nice to be able to attack with two one-handed Shield weapons, and/or to have twice the chance to block... but I just don't see it as feasible for the dev team to devote the time it would take to rework the existing off-hand-only Shield (and shield skill / blocking) system to work on the mainhand.


Plus, think about how many shields already exist. Would they all be reworked to function as weapons? Only some of them? Or would shields that work as weapons be a wholly separate category of item, requiring the creation of enough new shields to justify their own weapon category?


* EDIT: Shields as a weapon would almost definitely be severely limited in their damage potential so as to maintain the attractiveness of using actual weapons instead of dual-wielding shields. Running around with two defensive tools should definitely enhance your defensive capability, but it should force a question about if the tradeoff of reduced offensive capability is worth the enhanced defense.
...on a related tangent, I am certain that these shield weapons would have Enmity-enhancing statistics of some sort, and probably at least one enmity-enhancing or enmity-generating weapon skill, to make up for the enmity loss of the reduced damage. This would need to be an attractive option for tanks, after all, and a tank that can't hold hate can't tank very well.

EDIT2: ALso, I do think there would be at least a few 'spiked' and 'bladed' shield weapons that would do, respectively, piercing and slashing damage instead of or in addition to blunt damage. But I also think they would be small in number and the exception rather than the standard. Just makes more sense thematically that way. (But I'd be going out of my way to collect them.)


EDIT3: While I doubt an actual implementation would measure up to the idea put forth in the OP's art, I can definitely see a Galka Paladin with two shields in his hands, resolutely standing against the goblin that is trying to get to the oh-so-fragile Tarutaru mages behind him, with a look that says "just try it" as he executes his new (shield) weapon skill Blade Breaker that stuns the goblin and drastically reduces the damage he can deal - which allows the healer a moment to catch some breath and rebuild some MP. Or throw out more buffs.

[kingfury]

I strongly suspect that SE will not implement this as a dual-wielded weapon system, or as a dual-shield system wherein both shields are processed by the game system in the same manner as a single shield is now.

However, if SE did decide to allow dual-shield wielding, I would bet they would do so by creating a 'Shield' weapon type (more akin to Swords than existing Shields).

Main-slot Shields would primarily do Blunt damage, and would generally have DEF+ as one of their stats. Their damage would likely be low, probably comparable to Clubs or -both more likely and more depressing - Wands.*

The Weapon Skills that this Shield Weapon category would provide would probably have primary staples including Stun or Knockback effects, possibly with at least one higher-level WS including a Terrorize effect to represent an enhanced stun. Most Weapon Skills would have VIT as either their sole or primary stat modifier. I'd bet there would be at least one WS that derives its damage solely from the Defense stat, similar to BLU's Cannonball.

I would also bet that most HQ shield weapons would include Shield Skill bonuses, and the most common attribute bonus would be VIT+.

Shield Weapons may or may not trigger parries. I'm not sure if they should or not - mechanically, that's the easiest way to adapt existing mechanics to simulate using the primary-hand Shield being used to block attacks. However, thematically it's very strange to think of a person blocking attacks with one shield while parrying attacks with another shield.
This issue could probably be sidestepped if the Defense and/or Shield Skill bonuses of main-hand shields were sufficiently potent.




I know it would be nice to be able to attack with two one-handed Shield weapons, and/or to have twice the chance to block... but I just don't see it as feasible for the dev team to devote the time it would take to rework the existing off-hand-only Shield (and shield skill / blocking) system to work on the mainhand.


Plus, think about how many shields already exist. Would they all be reworked to function as weapons? Only some of them? Or would shields that work as weapons be a wholly separate category of item, requiring the creation of enough new shields to justify their own weapon category?


* EDIT: Shields as a weapon would almost definitely be severely limited in their damage potential so as to maintain the attractiveness of using actual weapons instead of dual-wielding shields. Running around with two defensive tools should definitely enhance your defensive capability, but it should force a question about if the tradeoff of reduced offensive capability is worth the enhanced defense.
...on a related tangent, I am certain that these shield weapons would have Enmity-enhancing statistics of some sort, and probably at least one enmity-enhancing or enmity-generating weapon skill, to make up for the enmity loss of the reduced damage. This would need to be an attractive option for tanks, after all, and a tank that can't hold hate can't tank very well.

EDIT2: ALso, I do think there would be at least a few 'spiked' and 'bladed' shield weapons that would do, respectively, piercing and slashing damage instead of or in addition to blunt damage. But I also think they would be small in number and the exception rather than the standard. Just makes more sense thematically that way. (But I'd be going out of my way to collect them.)


EDIT3: While I doubt an actual implementation would measure up to the idea put forth in the OP's art, I can definitely see a Galka Paladin with two shields in his hands, resolutely standing against the goblin that is trying to get to the oh-so-fragile Tarutaru mages behind him, with a look that says "just try it" as he executes his new (shield) weapon skill Blade Breaker that stuns the goblin and drastically reduces the damage he can deal - which allows the healer a moment to catch some breath and rebuild some MP. Or throw out more buffs.

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Sorry for the delay in clarifying the direction the Original concept was suggesting, I've been running around all day (>.<)

Your post is a great summery of the thought process around the concept I was toying with, so this is an awesome addition to the thread, thanks. To answer your questions in order:

• Weapon Category
  I'm indeed suggesting the implementation of a new weapon type/category vs the current available defensive only shields. These shields would be considered a Main hand weapon if used in conjunction with our traditional shields and would not activate the sub shield as a melee weapon. Only if two of these melee shields are equipped would they both be used to cause damage and thus be classified as "Dual-wielding Shields" as suggested in the Original post. The unique part of this weapon however, would be that it's actually a hybrid in terms of functionality. It would have the ability to be used as an offensive tool as well as defensive tool all by itself, so technically a player would be wielding both at once (melee + blocking + weapon skills, etc). So the programming challenge would come down to merging the properties of the two functions effectively.
  
• Damage/Weapon skills
  The damage would be on par with what a high end Axe would produce, and would indeed have an assortment of push back and enfeebling weapon skills available to the user. I can also see a number of Rush-like weapon skills that would generate spike enmity to grab the monsters attention. The damage would be primarily be blunt, but would also encompass slashing damage if a spiked or bladed-edge shield is being wielded. I really like the bonuses that you've suggested (the +shield skill, VIT based weapon skill mods) and I would include strong +counter and +parrying values to the mix. Which leads to if the melee shield should parry or not.
  Since I'm suggesting this concept as a new fighting style, as awkward as it might seem, this fighting style would function like no other using an intricate mix of blocking, parrying, strong slashing/striking and stiff blows. Along with the use of two of these shields at the same time it would be a very unique display of battling.
  
• The Devs Investment
  In terms of the Devs investing time and work into a new weapon category, I believe with the new expansion coming up, finding socially unique concepts to fill out all the boarders of the new lands is a very important goal for the future of the entertainment quality produced for the loyal player base of FFXI. The last handful of "expansions" have been reskinned zones for the most part with the exception of the introduction of a few new monster types and bosses, so the new expansion has the potential to be a new rich social experience similar to Aht Urhgan. Aht Urhgan introduced two new job classes that used traditional weapon types as this new expansion will, but imagine the depth that a new weapon category could bring outside of just new job classes.
  It's very much apart of the Devs job to create new and varying content for us to enjoy so I think it would hold some potential if done correctly. By "correctly" I mean not just adding it to be adding it, but truly making it something unique and rewarding for players to pick up and master.

Again, thanks for the very detailed post Yokai /salute
(Look forward to seeing that very image added to the OP with the Galka smacking the goblin btw lol)

[kingfury]

While I doubt an actual implementation would measure up to the idea put forth in the OP's art, I can definitely see a Galka Paladin with two shields in his hands, resolutely standing against the goblin that is trying to get to the oh-so-fragile Tarutaru mages behind him, with a look that says "just try it" as he executes his new (shield) weapon skill Blade Breaker that stuns the goblin and drastically reduces the damage he can deal - which allows the healer a moment to catch some breath and rebuild some MP. Or throw out more buffs.

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[airsparrowhawk]

I'm liking this, it's good to see well-presented new ideas once in a while and a dual shield system would be pretty interesting as a combat style, maybe Square Enix could consider a new job being released with this combat style as a grounding, I'm thinking 'Guardian' personally. It'd be like a non-magical Paladin with the ability to buff it's own defence as well as those around it.

I'd like to see more multi-job integrations though, Meteor for example, is increased for every Black Mage that casts simultaneously, so why not have something similar for this but from a defensive standpoint? How about a Testudo (Turtle Shell) formation like the Ancient Roman army practiced? Or a Schiltron formation used by spear wielders in Medieval times?

Personally I think it's something Squeenix hasn't explored yet and it's a big area for new innovative ideas. Plus the idea of using dual shields could easily be integrated into something just like this.

[kingfury]

I'm liking this, it's good to see well-presented new ideas once in a while and a dual shield system would be pretty interesting as a combat style, maybe Square Enix could consider a new job being released with this combat style as a grounding, I'm thinking 'Guardian' personally. It'd be like a non-magical Paladin with the ability to buff it's own defence as well as those around it.

I'd like to see more multi-job integrations though, Meteor for example, is increased for every Black Mage that casts simultaneously, so why not have something similar for this but from a defensive standpoint? How about a Testudo (Turtle Shell) formation like the Ancient Roman army practiced? Or a Schiltron formation used by spear wielders in Medieval times?

Personally I think it's something Squeenix hasn't explored yet and it's a big area for new innovative ideas. Plus the idea of using dual shields could easily be integrated into something just like this.

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Thanks for the feedback and awesome idea!

Initially, I did want to pitch this concept as a new job class (since I do honestly believe it could be fleshed out to be a unique form of a combat style), but I figured that would be far more ambitious for the upcoming expansion than simply creating the weapon itself to be used by all the current jobs that would get the most out of it's play style. However, that doesn't mean the Devs couldn't create a history around the weapon itself upon implementation that speaks of a lost warrior class that used these unique weapons primarily in battle. Heck, I'd be ecstatic if a new type of beastmen in the expansion lands still prefer to use this possible "weapon of old".

Honestly though, aside from the cool factor of dual-wielding two "death spheres" in battle, if the Dev team did invest the work into bringing this weapon to life in FFXI, it would kind of behoove them to put their own wonderful style and flare all around it as only Final Fantasy developers can. If that would mean a new job class, then yeah, I would unlock this class in a heartbeat... though I would most likely (depending on the job abilities and traits) swap it in as a fun new sub for WAR since I'm a little obsessed with the variety of that job

Truly awesome concept you've suggested with the team built "defensive potential" of such a weapon. I would imagine the strategy being insane around pulling off something as cool as this mid-battle, but the outcome would totally justify the means lol. Perhaps a minimum of 2 players dual-wielding these weapons (so 4 shields) could perform a simplified Testudo that protects a small to medium sized area around themselves. Furthermore, 3-4 dual-wielding players (that's 6-8 shields) could then increase both the potency of the party defense and the protection circumference around themselves. I'd love see this in real time action for sure.

Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem to find any information anywhere about a fighting style composed of dual-wielding melee shields. Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not sure if there has ever been a fighting style composed of using two shields primarily as both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out that such a fighting style ever existed.

[airsparrowhawk]

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Thanks for the feedback and awesome idea!

Initially, I did want to pitch this concept as a new job class (since I do honestly believe it could be fleshed out to be a unique form of a combat style), but I figured that would be far more ambitious for the upcoming expansion than simply creating the weapon itself to be used by all the current jobs that would get the most out of it's play style. However, that doesn't mean the Devs couldn't create a history around the weapon itself upon implementation that speaks of a lost warrior class that used these unique weapons primarily in battle. Heck, I'd be ecstatic if a new type of beastmen in the expansion lands still prefer to use this possible "weapon of old".

Honestly though, aside from the cool factor of dual-wielding two "death spheres" in battle, if the Dev team did invest the work into bringing this weapon to life in FFXI, it would kind of behoove them to put their own wonderful style and flare all around it as only Final Fantasy developers can. If that would mean a new job class, then yeah, I would unlock this class in a heartbeat... though I would most likely (depending on the job abilities and traits) swap it in as a fun new sub for WAR since I'm a little obsessed with the variety of that job

Truly awesome concept you've suggested with the team built "defensive potential" of such a weapon. I would imagine the strategy being insane around pulling off something as cool as this mid-battle, but the outcome would totally justify the means lol. Perhaps a minimum of 2 players dual-wielding these weapons (so 4 shields) could perform a simplified Testudo that protects a small to medium sized area around themselves. Furthermore, 3-4 dual-wielding players (that's 6-8 shields) could then increase both the potency of the party defense and the protection circumference around themselves. I'd love see this in real time action for sure.

Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem to find any information anywhere about a fighting style composed of dual-wielding melee shields. Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not sure if there has ever been a fighting style composed of using two shields primarily as both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out that such a fighting style ever existed.

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

It seems like an interesting idea anyways, but I can't imagine it working with any current classes so a new class may be the better choice, loving the new concepts and animations by the way, what software do you use, Photoshop for the artwork I'm guessing but what about the animation?

Also, I've started a thread just around multi-user abilities and formations, if you'd like to have a look feel free. ^^