The Problem with Red Mage . . .

[ManaKing]

Now for this. We were discussing the optimum melee builds for damage, thus we're using the highest damage output you can get. That means STR sword off hand and either Almace or Excal (with Almace being better on anything higher then you).

Now if we want to discuss situation use, upon which I mentioned earlier Sanus Ensis and PDT sword, then we can do that. Honestly "best" off hand weapon for RDM for melee situations is usually Sanus due to the cure pot / cure received and stats involved. There is something to be said for +13% Cure Pot and +10% Cure Received on a job that has native skill and Cure IV. Here your sacrificing 21 Attack for 2STR, 13MND and the cure effects while still maintaining a high DMG weapon. The PDT sword also comes into play for when your playing defensive and need to reduce the damage your taking.

Both of those are better "alternative / situational" weapons then Eph.

Now what this is really all about. Your butt hurt that we're telling you the STR Sword is your best off hand weapon. Maybe you don't have one or you don't want to spend the time / money to make one. You got lucky and got an Eph and your feeling attached to a rather rare item and want to use it.

I don't give a rats a$$ about the snowflake argument.

Wow so essentially you just said, 'I've been wasting a ton of time talking about theoretical damage even though YOU started this by talking about actual builds and actually playing the game.' God you're such an idiot. You guys all get that I play RDM almost 90% of the time or more? I'm not talking about something I take out and drive on the weekends. So when you are talking about a pure damage situation, you aren't actually talking to anyone that actually plays RDM. You are talking about a theoretical parse that no one should do because you shouldn't be there on RDM trying to DD.

RDM is my utility knife that I go everywhere with and use to take on this entire game, because I said I wanted to do it that way. I go to Limbus, Dynamis, Sky, Salvage, Assault, Campaign, Aby, VW, Legion, and any place else I want to go. RDM can go to all of those places easily. All of your arguments don't actually apply to any of those events because a pure damage situations are none of those situations. There is no Pure damage situation for RDM.

I didn't pick the omni class to take up all my gear and focus it on something that isn't better than another perfectly viable option that gets the most out of my job. I would have to have some kind of secondary motivation for a decision like that. Like that I play BLU and my Almace is already built and I don't actually play RDM.

[ManaKing]

Nah, the moment you proved you didn't understand basic game mechanics, fSTR, or how AM works is where you lost the argument

@above Rancor's +DT is hardly an issue on the very mobs you would typically melee on Rdm unless you're holding multiples, the only thing you don't have is a stun

'I speak in single sentences and thus are responded to in single sentences.'

[Neisan_Quetz]

Concession accepted, enjoy the rest of your day

[saevel]

Mana you've been talking in circles because you don't want to admit you were wrong. Eph is not better then STR Sword in any current build or situation. Almace and Excal are mostly equal but in situations were your fighting anything higher level then you are (level 100 or higher) Almace wins easily.

The moment you attempted to use your non-knowledge of game mechanics to justify yourself is where you messed up. Should of just taken the info and ran with it.

[Demon6324236]

Honestly I think this thread looks to be turning into a pissing contest of sorts I think.

[Demon6324236]

After testing it for about 10 minutes in Kuftal I have to say I actually doubt Excalibur's Additional Effect overwrites the effect of En-2 spells. I have been fighting Robber Crabs about 10 minutes removing all forms of Double Attack in order to make sure I was only seeing attacks of which would normally be effected by En-2s and in the 10 minutes I experienced not a single HP Proc. I am only using a lv85 Excalibur, however I would doubt that makes much of a difference, so I have to say for now that this is false until shown otherwise.

[ManaKing]

After testing it for about 10 minutes in Kuftal I have to say I actually doubt Excalibur's Additional Effect overwrites the effect of En-2 spells. I have been fighting Robber Crabs about 10 minutes removing all forms of Double Attack in order to make sure I was only seeing attacks of which would normally be effected by En-2s and in the 10 minutes I experienced not a single HP Proc. I am only using a lv85 Excalibur, however I would doubt that makes much of a difference, so I have to say for now that this is false until shown otherwise.

Go into aby. Equip triple attack atmas to save time. Put on enspell 2s. I'm doing it right now. Sorry you're unlucky.

[Demon6324236]

Go into aby. Equip triple attack atmas to save time. Put on enspell 2s. I'm doing it right now. Sorry you're unlucky.

You can not use Double or Triple Attack in testing this because the En-2 spells are only made to proc on the 1st hit of any attack around. This is why I said I removed all forms of Double Attack, as it gives false data since En-2s can not proc on the 2nd hit anyways. However if you are saying that you would use En-2s with Excalibur while knowing that you can not proc it on the 1st hit, and it only has a chance to proc on Double Attacks in the event they occur seems to be a flawed idea on how to use the weapon, and it seems as if you would be better off without any En-spell at all.

Edit------------------------------------------------

Please redo your testing yourself, while removing Temper & all forms of Double Attack, and then repost your new results. If you find something different than I did I will go back and redo it for a much longer period, however so far it would seem my original findings were correct for now.

[CapriciousOne]

[QUOTE=Afania;361916]1) It's pretty easy to label everything as "Pigeon-holing a job" if players just uses the strongest/most needed aspect of a job to beat an event.

It has nothing about I "enjoy" mage RDM or not, 2) I don't even play the job. 3) It's just the fact that using this aspect of the job makes things easier in certain situation. It's just like ppl invite BRD to sing, and melee BRD isn't most useful in EG event. Or ppl invite SCH to embrava and focus on stun and so on. You can tell ppl I hate buff only BRD and want to play as melee BRD all day, but it just doens't work as well. In the event such as legion, the most effective way to use BRD is to have it SV at start, and lock SV near the portal for entire time, and 4) do nothing entire run except lock 2hr+ sing when needed. You can tell everyone that I want to play as melee DD BRD and have best DD gears, but it just doesn't work as well as lock 2hr+ sing only BRD.

If you want to play role-playing and melee mage, then harder EG event isn't the right place to do it, as 5)pt efficiency and the outcome of the event will be affected.

If you want to play melee mage in easier content, such as old limbus/salvage/nyzul, then you will also face another problem, that is other melee jobs like BLU, still do the same thing, and do it much faster and more efficient, this issue was being pointed out earlier and addressed.

MMORPG, after you gonna grind stuff for months and years, sometimes ppl will lean towards efficiency rather than 6)novelty.
And there bound to be most efficient way currently discovered to do anything. For Melee mage lovers, maybe their first try will be fun, after a few tries and more grind, I believe majority of player would want to 7)choose faster ways to do it. Is melee RDM cool? Sure. Will melee RDM lovers enjoy it? Maybe for a few times. 8)But after you do 100 salvage/old nyzul/limbus runs on melee RDM, and do it slower than coming another melee job such as BLU, will you still insist to do it on RDM? That is my question.

RDM works just fine as it is, 9)if you're going to complain that RDM's melee ability is too weak compare with other job and you can't melee, then you may as well go complain PUP BLU BRD DNC THF BLM WHM COR SCH SMN RNG needs better melee ability because "I enjoy melee with a club" "I enjoy using a sword on pirate" "I enjoy playing as a musician with a dagger" "I enjoy magic warrior BLM meleeing with a staff and nuke on same time" and so on.

What I don't understand is, 10)why nobody ever complained BRD BLM SCH COR SMN needs a melee dmg buff, but ppl do so to RDM and if you claimed RDM can do something else(mage aspect) better, it's "pigeon-holing". So it's not "pigeon-holing" RNG if I said RNG excel at ranged low enmity DD but not melee, or if I said BLM excel at nuking but not melee, or if I said BRD excel at singing but not melee?

Your standard can extend to every job then, that 11)having RNG and COR shoot bullets instead of meleeing, or BLM nuking instead of using a staff, or BRD singing instead of using a dagger is "pigeon-holing".

And when we refuse to "Pigeon-hole" every job, let every job do what they want, there are no real way to handle party role anymore. And this is not how this game, FFXI is designed. This game is designed every job has it's best party role, despite every job gets certain weapon skill level for melee.

RDM is not classified as melee job but a mage job at the moment, deal with it. Maybe SE may change it in the future and nerf it's mage role, makes melee role stronger, but whatever it goes, deal with it, accept the fact that every job in this game is "pigeon-hole" and specialized at one aspect, and 12)be glad that at least it's wanted for one event in this game.[/QUOTE]

1+3 Well see this is where our and probably most melee RDM perspectives differ. There is nothing wrong with using the mage aspect of the job to aid in battle but not at the expense of the other aspects it also accesses. That is what I call pigeon holing- the emphasis of one aspect to negligence/exclusion of others. For me it about utilizing ALL ASPECTS not just one to get the job done.

2. Honeslty If you dont play RDM why the F are you here commenting on RDM at all without any RDM experience? I dont play bard or brd much so I dont comment on brd threads.

4 Well that is my point about exactly about RDM I can do MANY things not just one. I also believe that anybody with a weapon should be swinging it else why are you here. It makes no sense to me that 18 ppl with a weapon equipped but only like 9 of them are actually swinging them. For instance, a mob has 60k hp and let say for the sake of conversation that the aveage delay for the party is say 350( various combinations of weapons with GS with high delay of 500 and daggers with around 200 delay) and let say the average base damage per person possible is 80 (daggers at about 40, GS at about 120). So with 80 base damage at 350 delay it would be far faster to kill a 60k hp mob dealing 1440 damage about every 6 seconds than having 9 dd dealing only about 720 not counting ws damage per attack round. The same could be said about any other job damage dealt is damage dealt no matter magic or weapon and people need to just shut up and hit something I say.

5 As far as party efficiency goes there are many factors that are involved to effect that beyond just RDM meleeing even in harder more recent content, I am aware that more recent content has new mob techniques like Glavoid in abyssea and its ability to absorb damage and stuff like that but being aware of when to do and not do is essential to party efficiency, in other words STRATEGY. Player efficiency at the job also matters like having skill capped to or above the level of the mob being contesting which with the days of abyssea burn parties for people leaves a lot to be desired in job compentency these days. I mean how many people actually go back and skil; up jobs afterwards?

6 Novely? I personally dont see anything about RDM as a novelty. If anything I see RDM as the most balanced job overall between melee and magic. I can melee mobs, enfeeble mobs to reduce/eliminate the advantages they have over me in attack speed, defense, magic. To me in the world of Vanadiel that isnt a novelty, it is ESSENTIAL.

7 I get being more efficient as I am no stranger to trying to be more efficient but to anybody with any common sense it is far faster to use MELEE AND MAGIC over MELEE ONLY OR MAGIC ONLY. Duh.
8 Well when I finally decide to get Blue mage up and do those events 100 times I will give you an answer to that question but as far as I can see from playing those other jobs to at least lv 21(other than RDM,DNC, and THF) I highly doubt my answer will be anything but yes on insisting on still using RDM

9 Personally, I am not complaining about RDM attack power as I feel RDM is more than a competent melee capable job, though some of the WS and their modifiers can use some refinement. RDM is a B with the sword with BLU/PLD being an A. The difference with me is that I dont expect to do 1 to 1 damage with those guys with a B skill, however I DONT believe the gap should be so wide. For instance if BLU/PLD can do 2000 damage at max tp with a WS than RDM should be able to do at least 1500 plain and simple with the same type of equipment/atmas/etc. I mean since the grading scale for A is 94-100 and B is 85-93 and 1500 would be an even 85% of pld/blu damage... enough said.

10 Maybe it just me but I never seen a 99 BRD, COR like ever and I only run into BLM SCH SMN mostly when they farming so I imagine you never hear about BRD, COR because not many play it enough to care so passionately about it like RDM and BLM, SCH, and SMN are dedicated mage jobs and do about as much damage using magic as DD do using weapons so there is very little to complain about when Blizzaja can do about 2000dmg to multiple mobs at once, especially if they are weak to it and BLM gets all the Magic Attack bonuses which gives a magic mod of like 2.3x dmg so about what would they have to complain?

11 Technically I define meleeing as using any mechanical weaponry to attack and damage a mob so using shooting bullets would still count in my book it would just be categorized as ranged melee and not close quarters melee (in other words I'm calling ranged for wimps) LOL

12 Low expectations low rewards. The thing is most people arent content with just being thrown a bone with just one or 2 events that quite frankly they may or may not even care to enjoy because nothing they desire is won from it. Even if it was it is about being included in ALL game content, you know that thing called OPTIONS.

[Lilia]

>.< junk

Maybe you have only joytoy and relict af2 for melee, THEN you weaker as other melee jobs.....

The prob is not Rdm cant melee good enough, the prob is when rdm go with ~lvl75 equip.

Rly good equip Rdm can pull out good dmg. and can beat easy 08/15 blus,thfs,

Say the rdm cant good melee is junk......