The Problem with Red Mage . . .

[saevel]

Quick recap/ tl;dr - 1. Rdm is not BLU. Blu makes sacrifices to be better in some areas while weaker in others. RDM should be all things out of the box. 2. RDM just needs a little melee loving to make it what the job is meant to be.
P.S. to those "Go be BLU then" people... spell farming for hours on end? No thanks. I'll stick to buying them like i have for years and keep playing the only class i love.

As someone with a fully blinged out BLU and RDM (melee and mage varieties) I'm able to compare then two because they both fill the exact same position. If you need pure damage you bring one of the specialist melees, if you need pure healing / support / crowd control then you bring one of those guys. RDM / BLU (melee varieties) are for when you need damage, support and crowd control. In this regard BLU stomps all over RDM, picks it up dusts it off then stomps all over it again. This is mostly due to SE showing BLU lots of love in both the damage and support departments while completely ignoring RDM.

Ex:
Melee BLU (has TA / DWIII natively thus can go /WAR for bergressor / DA / ABI) access to much better WS's and gear selection. Can self SC and use CA and / or Efflux to land 2~3K+ physical damage spells of whatever damage type is needed. Can self Haste / Refresh

Melee RDM (must go /NIN to contribute meaningful damage), limited access to WS's without Almace, limited and restrictive melee and WS gear options. Tons of self buff mitigate this penalty somewhat. Can nuke but bad time vs damage ratio.

Support BLU (while being /WAR) M.Fruit is a cheap cure IV, P.Embrace is a more expensive backup cure that buffs people's attack. White Wind is Curaga III~IV basically. WoP aoe Erase (BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT SUPPORT SPELL). Stun spam if needed (HB / SL / TS / WoR). And if all that wasn't enough, BOTH light and dark based aoe CC (Sheep / Flower). Can aoe Haste once per 10m with a 5m haste (longer if merits / gear permits), useful before fights or during NNI.

Support RDM (while being /NIN) Cure III~IV for cures, Regen II for HoT. No status healing and only ST CC's (bind / grav / sleep I / II). 5% More -def then BLU (if they even bother with FR) which is easier to use. Can Haste / Refresh others.

Support RDM (while /SCH) Cure III~IV for cheap cures, Regen II for HoT. Can remove the major status healing but no cheap aoe erase. Haste / Refresh as usual. Slightly better nuking thanks to DA, but still poor when compared to melee.

Seems kinda lop sided huh? Any situation where I could in theory bring a "Melee" RDM I would be better off bringing my BLU, and any situation where I would bring a "Mage" RDM I would be better off bringing my WHM, BLM or SCH. This has left literally zero positions for a RDM to actually exist in FFXI, all they do now is go around making video's while soloing some monster without TH that could better be killed with a group of 3~6 with TH.

Now don't take this as a rant against BLU, I absolutely love my BLU. It's one of the few jobs SE actually got right and hasn't screwed up *yet* (knocks on wood). I believe SE should buff most if not all jobs to the level BLU is at, in usefulness if nothing else. BLU is a shining example of what a "hybrid" job should be, it can deal sufficient quantities of damage to warrant serious discussion (but not as much as the specialists). It can heal enough to warrant inclusion in low man group activities. It can apply enough crowd control to make it a vital asset in any group. And it does all these without stepping on the toes of the specialists jobs. BLU's got enough flexibility that it can assume nearly any position in a group, multiple times while leveling to 75 (in those days when we used to kill colibri) I've main healed partys on BLU (no healer lfp). BLU's only weakness is that because it's not as good as the specialist jobs in any one thing, it's not preferred for big 18 member alliance mega boss fights which are basically Legion and Voidwatch.

So for your comparison, it's more like RDM is the straight C student with the BLU being the A student who is also a starter on the all star football team while playing in band. The RDM is the guy who you hang out with when you got nothing else to do and just shooting the sh1t about the world. The BLU is the guy who you actually want on your school's competitive teams.

[Afania]

As someone with a fully blinged out BLU and RDM (melee and mage varieties) I'm able to compare then two because they both fill the exact same position. If you need pure damage you bring one of the specialist melees, if you need pure healing / support / crowd control then you bring one of those guys. RDM / BLU (melee varieties) are for when you need damage, support and crowd control. In this regard BLU stomps all over RDM, picks it up dusts it off then stomps all over it again. This is mostly due to SE showing BLU lots of love in both the damage and support departments while completely ignoring RDM.

Ex:
Melee BLU (has TA / DWIII natively thus can go /WAR for bergressor / DA / ABI) access to much better WS's and gear selection. Can self SC and use CA and / or Efflux to land 2~3K+ physical damage spells of whatever damage type is needed. Can self Haste / Refresh

Melee RDM (must go /NIN to contribute meaningful damage), limited access to WS's without Almace, limited and restrictive melee and WS gear options. Tons of self buff mitigate this penalty somewhat. Can nuke but bad time vs damage ratio.

Support BLU (while being /WAR) M.Fruit is a cheap cure IV, P.Embrace is a more expensive backup cure that buffs people's attack. White Wind is Curaga III~IV basically. WoP aoe Erase (BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT SUPPORT SPELL). Stun spam if needed (HB / SL / TS / WoR). And if all that wasn't enough, BOTH light and dark based aoe CC (Sheep / Flower). Can aoe Haste once per 10m with a 5m haste (longer if merits / gear permits), useful before fights or during NNI.

Support RDM (while being /NIN) Cure III~IV for cures, Regen II for HoT. No status healing and only ST CC's (bind / grav / sleep I / II). 5% More -def then BLU (if they even bother with FR) which is easier to use. Can Haste / Refresh others.

Support RDM (while /SCH) Cure III~IV for cheap cures, Regen II for HoT. Can remove the major status healing but no cheap aoe erase. Haste / Refresh as usual. Slightly better nuking thanks to DA, but still poor when compared to melee.

Seems kinda lop sided huh? Any situation where I could in theory bring a "Melee" RDM I would be better off bringing my BLU, and any situation where I would bring a "Mage" RDM I would be better off bringing my WHM, BLM or SCH. This has left literally zero positions for a RDM to actually exist in FFXI, all they do now is go around making video's while soloing some monster without TH that could better be killed with a group of 3~6 with TH.

This is not true, I know many groups bring RDM over WHM to legion(although I still bring both RDM and WHM to legion) due to RDM offering other aspect WHM doesn't have(CS stun/dia3/refresh2). Although SCH is not skippable due to more stuns and embrava.

BLU's versatility shines in lowman, where RDM shines in legion when versatile mage are needed in an ally and everything is zerged, and rely on cure/stun/def down heavily. Which job has the ability like RDM, that can CS stun when needed, assist cure/stun, refresh2 others, and dia3 everything.

In a standard legion ally setup, (assuming you still keep a WHM to cure instead of RDM)

DDx5 COR SCH x3 BRD PLD THF WHM SMN x4 RDM x1

P.S, some group use 6 SMN, 0 WHM, 1 RDM and 2 SCH instead.

You get 4 PD 1 CS so good protection on 5 NM total. You got dia3+refresh2 and 2 person curing DDs, plus 4 stunners total.
Change that RDM to SMN, you still get protection on 5 NM, but your dia3 down grade to dia2, no refresh 2 for WHM, 3 stunner instead of 4, and only 1 healer in ally(SCH need to focus on stun).

Change RDM to BLU, you get worse stun/def down, and can't cure outside of pt, you can't output melee dmg without PD also.
And BLM isn't used in legion except Hall of An.

Change RDM to 4th SCH, you still don't have dia3/refresh2, and no CS stun either.

Change RDM to 2nd COR or BRD, any 2nd+ COR or BRD doesn't offer much more after 1st unless you need extra reset chance. BRD can sing 3~4 songs and any song after 4th doesn't add much. Doing 4 COR rolls doesn't add a lot more dmg(After chaos/DA roll the only roll left is hunters/regain, which adds very little dmg if acc capped) to melees but it takes 2 more min to do 2 more rolls. As for reset, many groups don't rely on COR reset anymore either.

RDM can also do Impact(which is needed in Mul), although other mages can also cast it, they're often busy with their own task and RDM is the best role to do it. You also need ES for it on some NM, and RDM is the best one to do it since they're subbing BLM already.

Is it possible to "beat" legion with 0 RDM? Probably yes, but it's also possible to beat it with 0 SMN, or MNK x5 instead of Rag DD, or no SCH/BRD/COR at all. Not to mention I tend to use RDM roll in Mul on SCH since Mul mobs resists stun easily, and having RDM in pt helps.


The fact is, having a RDM in legion ally, brings much more to the table than no RDM. Change that RDM to any other job, it doesn't offer much more than having an RDM in ally. It just doesn't.

So there is your RDM's own thunder and room for jack of all trade mage. It's a versatile "mage" that shines in event like legion. Like how BLU is versatile "1h melee" that shines in lowman against EP/DC mobs. They're different, works differently, and shines in different area. You bring BLU to dyna/salvage/nyzul/Abby/old HNM and so on, when you only have 2~3 ppl in pt, and BLU can cover multiple roles when pt size so small. I don't understand why everyone is jealous(?) of BLU, when BLU can't even get into legion ally.

RDM doesn't need more melee ability, it should stay as a mage with unique aspect that you'd need in event such as legion. RDM also covers multiple aspect in ally, stun/cure/CS/dia3/refresh2/impact, and other debuff when PD is down, which works very well in legion. Not to mention 2nd wave ironclad in Mul and 1st wave sandworm in Muru is total dick to deal with without CS.

[CapriciousOne]

This is not true, I know many groups bring RDM over WHM to legion(although I still bring both RDM and WHM to legion) due to RDM offering other aspect WHM doesn't have(CS stun/dia3/refresh2). Although SCH is not skippable due to more stuns and embrava.

BLU's versatility shines in lowman, where RDM shines in legion when versatile mage are needed in an ally and everything is zerged, and rely on cure/stun/def down heavily. Which job has the ability like RDM, that can CS stun when needed, assist cure/stun, refresh2 others, and dia3 everything.

In a standard legion ally setup, (assuming you still keep a WHM to cure instead of RDM)

DDx5 COR SCH x3 BRD PLD THF WHM SMN x4 RDM x1

P.S, some group use 6 SMN, 0 WHM, 1 RDM and 2 SCH instead.

You get 4 PD 1 CS so good protection on 5 NM total. You got dia3+refresh2 and 2 person curing DDs, plus 4 stunners total.
Change that RDM to SMN, you still get protection on 5 NM, but your dia3 down grade to dia2, no refresh 2 for WHM, 3 stunner instead of 4, and only 1 healer in ally(SCH need to focus on stun).

Change RDM to BLU, you get worse stun/def down, and can't cure outside of pt, you can't output melee dmg without PD also.
And BLM isn't used in legion except Hall of An.

Change RDM to 4th SCH, you still don't have dia3/refresh2, and no CS stun either.

Change RDM to 2nd COR or BRD, any 2nd+ COR or BRD doesn't offer much more after 1st unless you need extra reset chance. BRD can sing 3~4 songs and any song after 4th doesn't add much. Doing 4 COR rolls doesn't add a lot more dmg(After chaos/DA roll the only roll left is hunters/regain, which adds very little dmg if acc capped) to melees but it takes 2 more min to do 2 more rolls. As for reset, many groups don't rely on COR reset anymore either.

RDM can also do Impact(which is needed in Mul), although other mages can also cast it, they're often busy with their own task and RDM is the best role to do it. You also need ES for it on some NM, and RDM is the best one to do it since they're subbing BLM already.

Is it possible to "beat" legion with 0 RDM? Probably yes, but it's also possible to beat it with 0 SMN, or MNK x5 instead of Rag DD, or no SCH/BRD/COR at all. Not to mention I tend to use RDM roll in Mul on SCH since Mul mobs resists stun easily, and having RDM in pt helps.


The fact is, having a RDM in legion ally, brings much more to the table than no RDM. Change that RDM to any other job, it doesn't offer much more than having an RDM in ally. It just doesn't.

So there is your RDM's own thunder and room for jack of all trade mage. It's a versatile "mage" that shines in event like legion. Like how BLU is versatile "1h melee" that shines in lowman against EP/DC mobs. They're different, works differently, and shines in different area. You bring BLU to dyna/salvage/nyzul/Abby/old HNM and so on, when you only have 2~3 ppl in pt, and BLU can cover multiple roles when pt size so small. I don't understand why everyone is jealous(?) of BLU, when BLU can't even get into legion ally.

RDM doesn't need more melee ability, it should stay as a mage with unique aspect that you'd need in event such as legion. RDM also covers multiple aspect in ally, stun/cure/CS/dia3/refresh2/impact, and other debuff when PD is down, which works very well in legion. Not to mention 2nd wave ironclad in Mul and 1st wave sandworm in Muru is total dick to deal with without CS.

Well I haven't yet gotten around to legion but from reading this post, as well as others, I take most people arent doing Legion and dont care much about it as you apparently do. I also must admit that RDM does seem quite useful in this event as per your description. My only issue is the bolded line where everyone keeps trying pigeon hole RDM as a mage only/ predominately mage job. I wont claim to be a rpg enthusiast of any sorts because these game can be rather boring and monotonous to get most things done, however I've seen/played enough rpg to know that mages arent seen wielding bladed weapons of any sort very often. In any case they are it is typically something light and low damage like a knife/dagger because mages arent typically seen as strong enough to wield much else. In addition though redmage is capable of equipping a staff like a traditional mage. I respect you like the mage aspect of rdm as i admit is handy but can you please stop pigeon-holing it and respect that not everybody always enjoys the mage aspects as much as you do. Thank you for your understanding in advance.

[Afania]

Well I haven't yet gotten around to legion but from reading this post, as well as others, I take most people arent doing Legion and dont care much about it as you apparently do. I also must admit that RDM does seem quite useful in this event as per your description. My only issue is the bolded line where everyone keeps trying pigeon hole RDM as a mage only/ predominately mage job. I wont claim to be a rpg enthusiast of any sorts because these game can be rather boring and monotonous to get most things done, however I've seen/played enough rpg to know that mages arent seen wielding bladed weapons of any sort very often. In any case they are it is typically something light and low damage like a knife/dagger because mages arent typically seen as strong enough to wield much else. In addition though redmage is capable of equipping a staff like a traditional mage. I respect you like the mage aspect of rdm as i admit is handy but can you please stop pigeon-holing it and respect that not everybody always enjoys the mage aspects as much as you do. Thank you for your understanding in advance.

It's pretty easy to label everything as "Pigeon-holing a job" if players just uses the strongest/most needed aspect of a job to beat an event.

It has nothing about I "enjoy" mage RDM or not, I don't even play the job. It's just the fact that using this aspect of the job makes things easier in certain situation. It's just like ppl invite BRD to sing, and melee BRD isn't most useful in EG event. Or ppl invite SCH to embrava and focus on stun and so on. You can tell ppl I hate buff only BRD and want to play as melee BRD all day, but it just doens't work as well. In the event such as legion, the most effective way to use BRD is to have it SV at start, and lock SV near the portal for entire time, and do nothing entire run except lock 2hr+ sing when needed. You can tell everyone that I want to play as melee DD BRD and have best DD gears, but it just doesn't work as well as lock 2hr+ sing only BRD.

If you want to play role-playing and melee mage, then harder EG event isn't the right place to do it, as pt efficiency and the outcome of the event will be affected.

If you want to play melee mage in easier content, such as old limbus/salvage/nyzul, then you will also face another problem, that is other melee jobs like BLU, still do the same thing, and do it much faster and more efficient, this issue was being pointed out earlier and addressed.

MMORPG, after you gonna grind stuff for months and years, sometimes ppl will lean towards efficiency rather than novelty.
And there bound to be most efficient way currently discovered to do anything. For Melee mage lovers, maybe their first try will be fun, after a few tries and more grind, I believe majority of player would want to choose faster ways to do it. Is melee RDM cool? Sure. Will melee RDM lovers enjoy it? Maybe for a few times. But after you do 100 salvage/old nyzul/limbus runs on melee RDM, and do it slower than coming another melee job such as BLU, will you still insist to do it on RDM? That is my question.

RDM works just fine as it is, if you're going to complain that RDM's melee ability is too weak compare with other job and you can't melee, then you may as well go complain PUP BLU BRD DNC THF BLM WHM COR SCH SMN RNG needs better melee ability because "I enjoy melee with a club" "I enjoy using a sword on pirate" "I enjoy playing as a musician with a dagger" "I enjoy magic warrior BLM meleeing with a staff and nuke on same time" and so on.

What I don't understand is, why nobody ever complained BRD BLM SCH COR SMN needs a melee dmg buff, but ppl do so to RDM and if you claimed RDM can do something else(mage aspect) better, it's "pigeon-holing". So it's not "pigeon-holing" RNG if I said RNG excel at ranged low enmity DD but not melee, or if I said BLM excel at nuking but not melee, or if I said BRD excel at singing but not melee?

Your standard can extend to every job then, that having RNG and COR shoot bullets instead of meleeing, or BLM nuking instead of using a staff, or BRD singing instead of using a dagger is "pigeon-holing".

And when we refuse to "Pigeon-hole" every job, let every job do what they want, there are no real way to handle party role anymore. And this is not how this game, FFXI is designed. This game is designed every job has it's best party role, despite every job gets certain weapon skill level for melee.

RDM is not classified as melee job but a mage job at the moment, deal with it. Maybe SE may change it in the future and nerf it's mage role, makes melee role stronger, but whatever it goes, deal with it, accept the fact that every job in this game is "pigeon-hole" and specialized at one aspect, and be glad that at least it's wanted for one event in this game.

[CapriciousOne]

[QUOTE=Afania;361916]1) It's pretty easy to label everything as "Pigeon-holing a job" if players just uses the strongest/most needed aspect of a job to beat an event.

It has nothing about I "enjoy" mage RDM or not, 2) I don't even play the job. 3) It's just the fact that using this aspect of the job makes things easier in certain situation. It's just like ppl invite BRD to sing, and melee BRD isn't most useful in EG event. Or ppl invite SCH to embrava and focus on stun and so on. You can tell ppl I hate buff only BRD and want to play as melee BRD all day, but it just doens't work as well. In the event such as legion, the most effective way to use BRD is to have it SV at start, and lock SV near the portal for entire time, and 4) do nothing entire run except lock 2hr+ sing when needed. You can tell everyone that I want to play as melee DD BRD and have best DD gears, but it just doesn't work as well as lock 2hr+ sing only BRD.

If you want to play role-playing and melee mage, then harder EG event isn't the right place to do it, as 5)pt efficiency and the outcome of the event will be affected.

If you want to play melee mage in easier content, such as old limbus/salvage/nyzul, then you will also face another problem, that is other melee jobs like BLU, still do the same thing, and do it much faster and more efficient, this issue was being pointed out earlier and addressed.

MMORPG, after you gonna grind stuff for months and years, sometimes ppl will lean towards efficiency rather than 6)novelty.
And there bound to be most efficient way currently discovered to do anything. For Melee mage lovers, maybe their first try will be fun, after a few tries and more grind, I believe majority of player would want to 7)choose faster ways to do it. Is melee RDM cool? Sure. Will melee RDM lovers enjoy it? Maybe for a few times. 8)But after you do 100 salvage/old nyzul/limbus runs on melee RDM, and do it slower than coming another melee job such as BLU, will you still insist to do it on RDM? That is my question.

RDM works just fine as it is, 9)if you're going to complain that RDM's melee ability is too weak compare with other job and you can't melee, then you may as well go complain PUP BLU BRD DNC THF BLM WHM COR SCH SMN RNG needs better melee ability because "I enjoy melee with a club" "I enjoy using a sword on pirate" "I enjoy playing as a musician with a dagger" "I enjoy magic warrior BLM meleeing with a staff and nuke on same time" and so on.

What I don't understand is, 10)why nobody ever complained BRD BLM SCH COR SMN needs a melee dmg buff, but ppl do so to RDM and if you claimed RDM can do something else(mage aspect) better, it's "pigeon-holing". So it's not "pigeon-holing" RNG if I said RNG excel at ranged low enmity DD but not melee, or if I said BLM excel at nuking but not melee, or if I said BRD excel at singing but not melee?

Your standard can extend to every job then, that 11)having RNG and COR shoot bullets instead of meleeing, or BLM nuking instead of using a staff, or BRD singing instead of using a dagger is "pigeon-holing".

And when we refuse to "Pigeon-hole" every job, let every job do what they want, there are no real way to handle party role anymore. And this is not how this game, FFXI is designed. This game is designed every job has it's best party role, despite every job gets certain weapon skill level for melee.

RDM is not classified as melee job but a mage job at the moment, deal with it. Maybe SE may change it in the future and nerf it's mage role, makes melee role stronger, but whatever it goes, deal with it, accept the fact that every job in this game is "pigeon-hole" and specialized at one aspect, and 12)be glad that at least it's wanted for one event in this game.[/QUOTE]

1+3 Well see this is where our and probably most melee RDM perspectives differ. There is nothing wrong with using the mage aspect of the job to aid in battle but not at the expense of the other aspects it also accesses. That is what I call pigeon holing- the emphasis of one aspect to negligence/exclusion of others. For me it about utilizing ALL ASPECTS not just one to get the job done.

2. Honeslty If you dont play RDM why the F are you here commenting on RDM at all without any RDM experience? I dont play bard or brd much so I dont comment on brd threads.

4 Well that is my point about exactly about RDM I can do MANY things not just one. I also believe that anybody with a weapon should be swinging it else why are you here. It makes no sense to me that 18 ppl with a weapon equipped but only like 9 of them are actually swinging them. For instance, a mob has 60k hp and let say for the sake of conversation that the aveage delay for the party is say 350( various combinations of weapons with GS with high delay of 500 and daggers with around 200 delay) and let say the average base damage per person possible is 80 (daggers at about 40, GS at about 120). So with 80 base damage at 350 delay it would be far faster to kill a 60k hp mob dealing 1440 damage about every 6 seconds than having 9 dd dealing only about 720 not counting ws damage per attack round. The same could be said about any other job damage dealt is damage dealt no matter magic or weapon and people need to just shut up and hit something I say.

5 As far as party efficiency goes there are many factors that are involved to effect that beyond just RDM meleeing even in harder more recent content, I am aware that more recent content has new mob techniques like Glavoid in abyssea and its ability to absorb damage and stuff like that but being aware of when to do and not do is essential to party efficiency, in other words STRATEGY. Player efficiency at the job also matters like having skill capped to or above the level of the mob being contesting which with the days of abyssea burn parties for people leaves a lot to be desired in job compentency these days. I mean how many people actually go back and skil; up jobs afterwards?

6 Novely? I personally dont see anything about RDM as a novelty. If anything I see RDM as the most balanced job overall between melee and magic. I can melee mobs, enfeeble mobs to reduce/eliminate the advantages they have over me in attack speed, defense, magic. To me in the world of Vanadiel that isnt a novelty, it is ESSENTIAL.

7 I get being more efficient as I am no stranger to trying to be more efficient but to anybody with any common sense it is far faster to use MELEE AND MAGIC over MELEE ONLY OR MAGIC ONLY. Duh.
8 Well when I finally decide to get Blue mage up and do those events 100 times I will give you an answer to that question but as far as I can see from playing those other jobs to at least lv 21(other than RDM,DNC, and THF) I highly doubt my answer will be anything but yes on insisting on still using RDM

9 Personally, I am not complaining about RDM attack power as I feel RDM is more than a competent melee capable job, though some of the WS and their modifiers can use some refinement. RDM is a B with the sword with BLU/PLD being an A. The difference with me is that I dont expect to do 1 to 1 damage with those guys with a B skill, however I DONT believe the gap should be so wide. For instance if BLU/PLD can do 2000 damage at max tp with a WS than RDM should be able to do at least 1500 plain and simple with the same type of equipment/atmas/etc. I mean since the grading scale for A is 94-100 and B is 85-93 and 1500 would be an even 85% of pld/blu damage... enough said.

10 Maybe it just me but I never seen a 99 BRD, COR like ever and I only run into BLM SCH SMN mostly when they farming so I imagine you never hear about BRD, COR because not many play it enough to care so passionately about it like RDM and BLM, SCH, and SMN are dedicated mage jobs and do about as much damage using magic as DD do using weapons so there is very little to complain about when Blizzaja can do about 2000dmg to multiple mobs at once, especially if they are weak to it and BLM gets all the Magic Attack bonuses which gives a magic mod of like 2.3x dmg so about what would they have to complain?

11 Technically I define meleeing as using any mechanical weaponry to attack and damage a mob so using shooting bullets would still count in my book it would just be categorized as ranged melee and not close quarters melee (in other words I'm calling ranged for wimps) LOL

12 Low expectations low rewards. The thing is most people arent content with just being thrown a bone with just one or 2 events that quite frankly they may or may not even care to enjoy because nothing they desire is won from it. Even if it was it is about being included in ALL game content, you know that thing called OPTIONS.