The Problem with Red Mage . . .

[ManaKing]

My list of things I want is pretty short these days because the more I gear, the more I realize where my limitations actually are.

You can cap cure potency without using either your main hand or offhand. Translation: no staff required and no losing TP for cures.

Enfeebles apparently aren't getting fixed after all, so what else is new. I think we all saw that coming.

If you've kept up with Stoneskin, enhancing gear, fast cast, and PDT, you're probably as tough as me. Which is pretty obnoxious. Phallanx getting a little love would be appreciated, but not a lot, just a little more scaling to level 99.

Nuking is looking kinda shitty at level 99 and so are Enspells. Spikes aren't even worth mentioning unless you are talking about a major overhaul. This is essentially our sore spot now. If you kill 2 birds with 1 stone then you release Enspells that give us affinity and actually hit for more than Enspell 1s. You will make a great many RDMs happy by doing such a thing.

Occult Acumen. Gimme. No seriously. Do it. That's the only job trait I care about.

[CapriciousOne]

Everybody agrees that Red Mage as a job could use some improvements.

If nothing else, can we at least all agree that Red Mage should remain a flexible job with no singular "correct" style to play it, and then work from there?

I couldnt agree more with you and couldn't have said it better myself. Anybody that cant see that to me is a moron. It is clear that both sides are lacking for rdm but I think it pretty safe to say that nobody expects it to outshine jobs designed for specific purposes like WHM for cure or BLM for nukes.

Personally I am more for the melee side improving bc I think absolute mages dont wield bladed weapons of any kind but that just me but I never neglect to use my enfeebles and enhancements as needed. In addition of most mages I think RDM is more survivable as mages go other than BLU solo. To me the point of Red Mage is to be able to ADJUST TO CHANGING CIRCUMSTANCES REGARDLESS OF OUR PLAY PREFERENCE. In that sense alot of the mage improvements as well as melee improvements suggested all throughout this forum could be utilized to achieve that equilibrium but SE has shown little interest in making headway using our "INDECISION" as an excuse to do NOTHING AT ALL.

Given some mobs especially in endgame content have different weakness and even some immunities to one or both of magic and melee, RDM shines in the regard of adjusting better than most jobs even without a subjob. I think both sides are right for wanting there favorite aspects of the job to be better but an option to disable crap we dont like or never use in game would be nice. Like I would love to disable spells i never use so they dont crowd up my active spell list like lower tier spells, and Blink since it only good for like 2 successful attacks(or at least the last time i used it which was like about a year ago now, lol) For melee personally I would've loved a natural "Dual wield" trait over say "Magic burst bonus" and Temper but I can at least make some use of Temper for time to time.

In any case I've about given up on RDM because of the developers and might just go PLD or BLU or something instead. Overall though regarless if one is a melee or mage RDM all you're seeing is that people only promote what they care most despite sometimes those other enhancements can come in handy.

[ManaKing]

Given some mobs especially in endgame content have different weakness and even some immunities to one or both of magic and melee, RDM shines in the regard of adjusting better than most jobs even without a subjob. I think both sides are right for wanting there favorite aspects of the job to be better but an option to disable crap we dont like or never use in game would be nice. Like I would love to disable spells i never use so they dont crowd up my active spell list like lower tier spells, and Blink since it only good for like 2 successful attacks(or at least the last time i used it which was like about a year ago now, lol) For melee personally I would've loved a natural "Dual wield" trait over say "Magic burst bonus" and Temper but I can at least make some use of Temper for time to time.

I'm going to have to disagree pretty heavily. Temper essentially put us back in the game in the melee department. It gives you as much Double Attack from a spell, than most DDs can get from gear.

You can /NIN or /DNC if you want dual wield. If you are talking about getting some use out of melee, Temper is pretty much the greatest thing we have. Without it we would still be bad.

[CapriciousOne]

I'm going to have to disagree pretty heavily. Temper essentially put us back in the game in the melee department. It gives you as much Double Attack from a spell, than most DDs can get from gear.

You can /NIN or /DNC if you want dual wield. If you are talking about getting some use out of melee, Temper is pretty much the greatest thing we have. Without it we would still be bad.

Dont get me wrong it is a nice addition but i just dont like the spell form it was given i rather have it as a trait then a spell bc there is already some a list of spells I dont find much use for past 90 lately. Also dont get me wrong /DNC is a nice addition as far as subjobs and is a centerpiece in my style of play as far as meleeing but it would be nicer to have dual wield natively so i can sub some other combinations more often without losing my offhand weapon. I dont like /nin too much bc of all the tools needed to carry around on a regular basis and the rip off prices to buy them or the nusiance of having to crafting it myself. I always fancy some maybe less than desired combos like RDM/SCH, RDM/BLU, RDM/BLM just to toy around with solo but I refuse to give up that second melee swing EVERY ATTACK ROUND to do it so I SETTLE for temper because SE doesnt leave much choice. Still it is useful so I wouldnt call it a total waste.

[Calatilla]

So yea, Dev team, if you really do care about player feedback read through this thread and when you've finished tell us honestly, are you going to use any of these ideas in any way to fix RDM or are you just going to ignore it's problems and let it sit in a corner crying to itself? Tell us honestly yes or no, because we need to know.

The players care about this job even if you don't.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Dont get me wrong it is a nice addition but i just dont like the spell form it was given i rather have it as a trait then a spell bc there is already some a list of spells I dont find much use for past 90 lately. Also dont get me wrong /DNC is a nice addition as far as subjobs and is a centerpiece in my style of play as far as meleeing but it would be nicer to have dual wield natively so i can sub some other combinations more often without losing my offhand weapon. I dont like /nin too much bc of all the tools needed to carry around on a regular basis and the rip off prices to buy them or the nusiance of having to crafting it myself. I always fancy some maybe less than desired combos like RDM/SCH, RDM/BLU, RDM/BLM just to toy around with solo but I refuse to give up that second melee swing EVERY ATTACK ROUND to do it so I SETTLE for temper because SE doesnt leave much choice. Still it is useful so I wouldnt call it a total waste.

I disagree, I don't think we should get all that much in trait format, the only thing I'd say was my previous suggestion of a type of dual wield. Spells that grant the traits at a more potent version suit the job (IMO) far more than traits would.

[Sunrider]

The problem I have with adding to RDM solely through spells is the addition of yet more spells to cycle, whether for ourselves or for the party. Even with Composure, one would start to feel the burden if successive spells were to be added compensating for this, that, and the other trait.

It might be fine if the spells had durations similar to Protect or Shell, but those two seem to be exceptions rather than rules.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The problem I have with adding to RDM solely through spells is the addition of yet more spells to cycle, whether for ourselves or for the party. Even with Composure, one would start to feel the burden if successive spells were to be added compensating for this, that, and the other trait.

It might be fine if the spells had durations similar to Protect or Shell, but those two seem to be exceptions rather than rules.

Just more reason to further add means to enhance duration, like merits.

I think Spells is the only way we'll ever get melee buffs, and personally I'm fine with that. I've made suggestions such as Faith and Brave here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post354038 that does multiple buffs in one spell.

[Calatilla]

Isn't Brave essentially what Embrava is?

[ManaKing]

Dont get me wrong it is a nice addition but i just dont like the spell form it was given i rather have it as a trait then a spell bc there is already some a list of spells I dont find much use for past 90 lately. Also dont get me wrong /DNC is a nice addition as far as subjobs and is a centerpiece in my style of play as far as meleeing but it would be nicer to have dual wield natively so i can sub some other combinations more often without losing my offhand weapon. I dont like /nin too much bc of all the tools needed to carry around on a regular basis and the rip off prices to buy them or the nusiance of having to crafting it myself. I always fancy some maybe less than desired combos like RDM/SCH, RDM/BLU, RDM/BLM just to toy around with solo but I refuse to give up that second melee swing EVERY ATTACK ROUND to do it so I SETTLE for temper because SE doesnt leave much choice. Still it is useful so I wouldnt call it a total waste.

i like /NIN and /DNC both. /NIN seems expensive at first, but then you realize that you can seal farm with it and utsu 1+2 makes you a really strong solo. NIN elemental debuffs are also very potent and require no actual skill to profit from. If you are trying to land enfeebles in VW, they go a long way to doing it in 1 or 2 casts instead of the 4 or 5 everyone else has to do. Also, you can proc with them.

/DNC has it's own little bag of tricks, but the thing that kills me about it is that they essentially cut off the toys a couple levels too early. Chocobo Jig and Building Flourish would have made /DNC almost as good as /NIN.