The Problem with Red Mage . . .

[CapriciousOne]

Everybody agrees that Red Mage as a job could use some improvements.

If nothing else, can we at least all agree that Red Mage should remain a flexible job with no singular "correct" style to play it, and then work from there?

I couldnt agree more with you and couldn't have said it better myself. Anybody that cant see that to me is a moron. It is clear that both sides are lacking for rdm but I think it pretty safe to say that nobody expects it to outshine jobs designed for specific purposes like WHM for cure or BLM for nukes.

Personally I am more for the melee side improving bc I think absolute mages dont wield bladed weapons of any kind but that just me but I never neglect to use my enfeebles and enhancements as needed. In addition of most mages I think RDM is more survivable as mages go other than BLU solo. To me the point of Red Mage is to be able to ADJUST TO CHANGING CIRCUMSTANCES REGARDLESS OF OUR PLAY PREFERENCE. In that sense alot of the mage improvements as well as melee improvements suggested all throughout this forum could be utilized to achieve that equilibrium but SE has shown little interest in making headway using our "INDECISION" as an excuse to do NOTHING AT ALL.

Given some mobs especially in endgame content have different weakness and even some immunities to one or both of magic and melee, RDM shines in the regard of adjusting better than most jobs even without a subjob. I think both sides are right for wanting there favorite aspects of the job to be better but an option to disable crap we dont like or never use in game would be nice. Like I would love to disable spells i never use so they dont crowd up my active spell list like lower tier spells, and Blink since it only good for like 2 successful attacks(or at least the last time i used it which was like about a year ago now, lol) For melee personally I would've loved a natural "Dual wield" trait over say "Magic burst bonus" and Temper but I can at least make some use of Temper for time to time.

In any case I've about given up on RDM because of the developers and might just go PLD or BLU or something instead. Overall though regarless if one is a melee or mage RDM all you're seeing is that people only promote what they care most despite sometimes those other enhancements can come in handy.

[ManaKing]

Given some mobs especially in endgame content have different weakness and even some immunities to one or both of magic and melee, RDM shines in the regard of adjusting better than most jobs even without a subjob. I think both sides are right for wanting there favorite aspects of the job to be better but an option to disable crap we dont like or never use in game would be nice. Like I would love to disable spells i never use so they dont crowd up my active spell list like lower tier spells, and Blink since it only good for like 2 successful attacks(or at least the last time i used it which was like about a year ago now, lol) For melee personally I would've loved a natural "Dual wield" trait over say "Magic burst bonus" and Temper but I can at least make some use of Temper for time to time.

I'm going to have to disagree pretty heavily. Temper essentially put us back in the game in the melee department. It gives you as much Double Attack from a spell, than most DDs can get from gear.

You can /NIN or /DNC if you want dual wield. If you are talking about getting some use out of melee, Temper is pretty much the greatest thing we have. Without it we would still be bad.

[CapriciousOne]

I'm going to have to disagree pretty heavily. Temper essentially put us back in the game in the melee department. It gives you as much Double Attack from a spell, than most DDs can get from gear.

You can /NIN or /DNC if you want dual wield. If you are talking about getting some use out of melee, Temper is pretty much the greatest thing we have. Without it we would still be bad.

Dont get me wrong it is a nice addition but i just dont like the spell form it was given i rather have it as a trait then a spell bc there is already some a list of spells I dont find much use for past 90 lately. Also dont get me wrong /DNC is a nice addition as far as subjobs and is a centerpiece in my style of play as far as meleeing but it would be nicer to have dual wield natively so i can sub some other combinations more often without losing my offhand weapon. I dont like /nin too much bc of all the tools needed to carry around on a regular basis and the rip off prices to buy them or the nusiance of having to crafting it myself. I always fancy some maybe less than desired combos like RDM/SCH, RDM/BLU, RDM/BLM just to toy around with solo but I refuse to give up that second melee swing EVERY ATTACK ROUND to do it so I SETTLE for temper because SE doesnt leave much choice. Still it is useful so I wouldnt call it a total waste.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Dont get me wrong it is a nice addition but i just dont like the spell form it was given i rather have it as a trait then a spell bc there is already some a list of spells I dont find much use for past 90 lately. Also dont get me wrong /DNC is a nice addition as far as subjobs and is a centerpiece in my style of play as far as meleeing but it would be nicer to have dual wield natively so i can sub some other combinations more often without losing my offhand weapon. I dont like /nin too much bc of all the tools needed to carry around on a regular basis and the rip off prices to buy them or the nusiance of having to crafting it myself. I always fancy some maybe less than desired combos like RDM/SCH, RDM/BLU, RDM/BLM just to toy around with solo but I refuse to give up that second melee swing EVERY ATTACK ROUND to do it so I SETTLE for temper because SE doesnt leave much choice. Still it is useful so I wouldnt call it a total waste.

I disagree, I don't think we should get all that much in trait format, the only thing I'd say was my previous suggestion of a type of dual wield. Spells that grant the traits at a more potent version suit the job (IMO) far more than traits would.

[CapriciousOne]

I disagree, I don't think we should get all that much in trait format, the only thing I'd say was my previous suggestion of a type of dual wield. Spells that grant the traits at a more potent version suit the job (IMO) far more than traits would.

well over all in the quest to 99 i think all jobs should have what could be considered staples of the jobs as traits every 5 levels or so upto say at least a third tier. Essentially that would make the main job have like 6 tier 3 traits and maybe 3 tier 2 traits from subs.

For me if I built RDM it would look more like "Enhancing Magic Duration"(I know composure does this to some degree but some spells are excluded), "Enhancing Magic Potency"(for en/barspells), "Enfeebling magic evasion/Resistance"(instead of individual resists) as primary traits. These primary traits would cover like 4 tiers ever every 5 levels so about 60/99 levels that exists. Secondary traits like "Dual Wield", "Double attack", "Conserve MP" would cover 2 tiers every 5 levels to round out the other 30 levels. There could even be one final end all be all trait like RDM Mastery that doubles the effect of all those traits but SE will never be that generous and if they are they would give it those new jobs, but I would do most jobs with that same concept.

BLM would have Elemental Attack/Defense traits, BRD the same for songs, DNC the same for Steps/Sambas/Waltzes without meritting. I didnt list stuff liek "Fast Cast" because honestly I thing SE was dumb for even making a separate trait for that in the first place. Now that I even think about it the same could be said about "Conserve MP". I only say that because I look at it from the perspective that the more you learn about something the better you get it at it, even if the maximum potential to learn it is limited by IQ or whatever. With that said it is plausible that the better your skill at enfeebling the more successful you are at landing enfeebles(Accuracy) and the faster you are able to do the job (speed) and the less effort is required to do so (Cost) but to be fair I am spoiled by Bethesda Softworks a little.(ok a lot).

[ManaKing]

Dont get me wrong it is a nice addition but i just dont like the spell form it was given i rather have it as a trait then a spell bc there is already some a list of spells I dont find much use for past 90 lately. Also dont get me wrong /DNC is a nice addition as far as subjobs and is a centerpiece in my style of play as far as meleeing but it would be nicer to have dual wield natively so i can sub some other combinations more often without losing my offhand weapon. I dont like /nin too much bc of all the tools needed to carry around on a regular basis and the rip off prices to buy them or the nusiance of having to crafting it myself. I always fancy some maybe less than desired combos like RDM/SCH, RDM/BLU, RDM/BLM just to toy around with solo but I refuse to give up that second melee swing EVERY ATTACK ROUND to do it so I SETTLE for temper because SE doesnt leave much choice. Still it is useful so I wouldnt call it a total waste.

i like /NIN and /DNC both. /NIN seems expensive at first, but then you realize that you can seal farm with it and utsu 1+2 makes you a really strong solo. NIN elemental debuffs are also very potent and require no actual skill to profit from. If you are trying to land enfeebles in VW, they go a long way to doing it in 1 or 2 casts instead of the 4 or 5 everyone else has to do. Also, you can proc with them.

/DNC has it's own little bag of tricks, but the thing that kills me about it is that they essentially cut off the toys a couple levels too early. Chocobo Jig and Building Flourish would have made /DNC almost as good as /NIN.

[CapriciousOne]

i like /NIN and /DNC both. /NIN seems expensive at first, but then you realize that you can seal farm with it and utsu 1+2 makes you a really strong solo. NIN elemental debuffs are also very potent and require no actual skill to profit from. If you are trying to land enfeebles in VW, they go a long way to doing it in 1 or 2 casts instead of the 4 or 5 everyone else has to do. Also, you can proc with them.

/DNC has it's own little bag of tricks, but the thing that kills me about it is that they essentially cut off the toys a couple levels too early. Chocobo Jig and Building Flourish would have made /DNC almost as good as /NIN.

Yea I havent really been focusing much on event type stuff like VW because of all the skilling up and magian trials I been trying to get done plus I dont always play well with others, lol. I do think I agree with you about nin getting cheaper later on as far as tool expenditures as skill increases and i like the elemental wheel effect of how one builds off the others but my nin is still only like level 41 atm but I will get back to it as overall I do plan to get all my jobs to 99 but i'm in no rush to do so and I'm primarily focused on RDM, THF, and DNC so far and maybe BLU soon afterward but NIN will probably be right behind it if not before it.

[Nawesemo]

O.o who's trolling who here? I said what I said and you poke at me and not the fact that rdm can do just fine in the dd factory, and slap on the blinders and keep on insisting you got Skrewed..... Whatever, the good Rdms know what they can do given their limits and im sure your one of em, but what you want is about as silly as wars being upset they have no native haste.... And them eloquently asking for it and getting very defensive when they're told, that's a goofy idea. When do i get my l33T ONLY Pass I wanna be irrational and tell people to go away too.... ; ;

[tyrantsyn]

/facepalm A rdm wants to play blu... got it.

O.o who's trolling who here? I said what I said and you poke at me and not the fact that rdm can do just fine in the dd factory, and slap on the blinders and keep on insisting you got Skrewed..... Whatever, the good Rdms know what they can do given their limits and im sure your one of em, but what you want is about as silly as wars being upset they have no native haste.... And them eloquently asking for it and getting very defensive when they're told, that's a goofy idea. When do i get my l33T ONLY Pass I wanna be irrational and tell people to go away too.... ; ;

This is the attitude you came in here with lol. Which goes to show you know even less than what's going on in these forum's. You don't even understand when you've posted something that's going to get other's fired up and upset with you. Your clueless.

[CapriciousOne]

[QUOTE=Nawesemo;358010]O.o who's trolling who here? I said what I said and you poke at me and not the fact that rdm can do just fine in the dd factory, and slap on the blinders and keep on insisting you got Skrewed..... Whatever, the good Rdms know what they can do given their limits and im sure your one of em, but what you want is about as silly as wars being upset they have no native haste.... And them eloquently asking for it and getting very defensive when they're told, that's a goofy idea. When do i get my l33T ONLY Pass I wanna be irrational and tell people to go away too.... ; ;[/QUOTE]

LMFAO personally I am lost and dont follow anythng he saying to be honest. I think he talking to or about me but I dont see how anything he is saying appliles to anything I said nor do I really care to be honest. All jobs have limitations and the choice of subjobs can improve upon those limitations to some degree. Personally blue mage has somethings I like that I think can benefit RDM weaknesses from my standpoint one being the defense that gear gives kind of sucks even with protect V. Sure I can always level and go PLD if I really want to but then I would lose some of the abilities of RDM like tier I enspells since I dual wield alot and tend to use the element the mob is typically weak to (enaero against Anticans for instance). I personally think that it would cool to use the combo of Protect V/Phalanx I or II/Cocoon/Fish Mithkabobs but there are other combos as well. If I want to play blue I will level blu to 99 since i'm about halfway there anyway with 41blu atm anyway and intend to 99 that as well.

I know it may be hard for somebody of your limited intelligence to understand but a basic rdm is pretty decent overall even with out subjobs in comparison to most other jobs but RDM to me has far more flexibility as a base job than most others despite it never really has been the best at anything and really wasnt meant to be beyond enfeebling and enhancing yet and still is more than competent and capable to stand in and support the specialist if they should ever fall in battle until they are back on their feet again. In any case I plan on bringing PLD/BLU/RDM all to 99 at some point so i can mix it up a bit and maybe even go RDM/PLD so i can make use of the lower tier Defense Bonus traits of Paladin which would be useful in certain situations where I needed to solo battlefields with multiple mobs that werent particularly strong as far as attack and didnt feel were threatening enough to warrant /blm with sleepga or were dark based mobs that were very resistant to sleep. Again people of your level intelligence probably dont know anything about that kind of stuff to worry about it anyway.