The Problem with Red Mage . . .

[ManaKing]

read edited post ^

Also, Murgleis is awesome. I'm getting it. It's too pretty to pass up.

[Demon6324236]

Comparing RDM+Almace to BLU+Almace is stupid yes, however your comparing RDM+Almace to RDM+Excalibur which is vastly different and what we are talking about here so far as I know. In the end its a matter of Almace vs Excalibur for RDM and the end answer all comes down to how they work and what you use for them. I plan to gear both to the teeth and give my results to everyone which is why I have asked help on the RDM forums of AH.com for more assistance on building a solid build for KoR. I plan to do much of the same for other sets in time as I go along, but thats in due time and once I can really get my hands on more of the gear I need. Sadly my ls is not active in Legion, Neo-Nyzul, or Neo-Limbus currently so my access to the higher end gear I do actually want & require is still out of reach and the prime reason I actually lack a Shedir, which since you brought it to my attention in this same thread I believe, I have had it as a goal, same as Kudzu.

[saevel]

I really don't know how else to explain this. We're discussing pure damage output here hence the preference for STR Sword off hand, and in any situation where you want pure offensive power it's what you'll be using. This precluded alternate situations where things like Sanus Ensis would be preferable or the PDT sword.

Almace's ODD can not proc on WS's, it's melee damage only but it's proc rate is much higher then Xcal's 2.5. Req vs CDC is a very big "it depends" as RDM has crap attack compared to other DW jobs, mostly due to it not being able to have /WAR with DW. You never EVER want your cRatio to be under 1.0, that's the territory of absolute sh!t damage. Req's -20% attack penality pretty much guarantees that you'll be under 1.0 on anything more then 4~5 levels above you. At that point in time a crit is double damage (1.0 -> 2.0) and crits suddenly become very important to WS damage.

Messed up thing about Xcal's add damage is that it's pretty much equal to using enspell 1's on a Dual Wielding job. I don't know about the precedence of Enspell II vs Add effect, I've NEVER EVER heard about them being different then Enspell 1's and until I see evidence otherwise I'm assuming their the same. The attack on Xcal is really nice, but it doesn't make up for the damage lost. In either case you would be using STR sword off hand, I really can't see anywhere that 3% would do more for you then 27.5 attack and 2.7 fSTR as you can already cap gear haste.

I've been around and around this for a very long time and no matter what numbers you plug in STR Shikagar -> Eph Sword, on both RDM and BLU. It's really just an expensive glowing sword good only for town gear.

[ManaKing]

I really don't know how else to explain this. We're discussing pure damage output here

No, we're not. We are talking about applicable situations where RDMs would melee and the actual merits of doing so. You know, actually playing the game as a RDM.....

Almace's ODD can not proc on WS's, it's melee damage only but it's proc rate is much higher then Xcal's 2.5. Req vs CDC is a very big "it depends" as RDM has crap attack compared to other DW jobs, mostly due to it not being able to have /WAR with DW. You never EVER want your cRatio to be under 1.0, that's the territory of absolute sh!t damage. Req's -20% attack penality pretty much guarantees that you'll be under 1.0 on anything more then 4~5 levels above you. At that point in time a crit is double damage (1.0 -> 2.0) and crits suddenly become very important to WS damage.

Cough Cough soil gorget and belt. Add tons of MND. Do work.

Messed up thing about Xcal's add damage is that it's pretty much equal to using enspell 1's on a Dual Wielding job. I don't know about the precedence of Enspell II vs Add effect, I've NEVER EVER heard about them being different then Enspell 1's and until I see evidence otherwise I'm assuming their the same. The attack on Xcal is really nice, but it doesn't make up for the damage lost. In either case you would be using STR sword off hand, I really can't see anywhere that 3% would do more for you then 27.5 attack and 2.7 fSTR as you can already cap gear haste.

Oh well here's the evidence. I had a friend who had an Excal before me. I was like hey, switch over to RDM please, put on Enspell 2s. Attack those mobs for like 3 minutes.

Results: Additional Affect overrides Enspell 2 damage. Additional Affect can go off on any normal swing done by Excalibur, aka Double Attacks.

I went, holy shit, I want one of those. 3 months later = now. Ask Demon if he puts on enspell 2s if he gets the TH/Enlight proc to go off. Don't take my word for it. We have a 2nd party here that isn't biased to how clearly awesome Excal is.

The attack on Xcal is really nice, but it doesn't make up for the damage lost. In either case you would be using STR sword off hand, I really can't see anywhere that 3% would do more for you then 27.5 attack and 2.7 fSTR as you can already cap gear haste.

I've been around and around this for a very long time and no matter what numbers you plug in STR Shikagar -> Eph Sword, on both RDM and BLU. It's really just an expensive glowing sword good only for town gear.

The attack on the Excal is obnoxiously nice is what you mean to say, because it is. When you guys are all like STR shika this and STR shika that, I'm like how about just having 73 base damage and 40 god damn attack? The thing is a monster. I'm essentially using an Axe with extra damage procs(plural because there are 2). If there was only 1, I would be less adamant about it, but there are 2.

You don't get just attack, you also get accuracy, a faster TP phase, lower total delay, and an additional additional affect that steals TP. Not to mention a ton of AGI for subtle blow and for lessening your chances of being critically hit. You're an elvaan, you know what that means.

Also, what do you want to do with your neck and ammo slot? Anything fancy because idk you're a fancy mage that can melee at a reasonable level? You can use a ranged weapon if you want, so you can pull again magic aggro foes. If you ever manage to get a Portus Collar, you can wear that without messing up your TP phase.

I understand that if you math a STR Shikagar and an Almace, it wins, but you're not seeing the applications of it, nor what you are giving up for it.

[ManaKing]

No~ Last I knew it proced on WSs as well as normal strikes. I was led to believe the main reason for most emps these days such as Masa or Calad was to use the WS to have an active aftermath of which you then spam the corresponding Merit WS with a chance to get the ODD effect to proc thus creating more overall damage, I may have been mistaken however, this is only going off of what I have been told, never looked into it much myself. If I'm wrong then so be it, but in either case I still think neither of us have had an Excalibur long enough to say with 100% certainty which one is better than the other. Because so far as I gather from the thread asking for a loan that you have had yours about a week, and I doubt that is enough time to get any definitive info on which is better and in which situations without going simply off another's testimony of which I can not see it as a good idea to defend another's ideals or opinions so adamantly.

I've had an Almace for a long time. I know what Empys are. An Almace is BLUs Relic, since they didn't get in on Excal. I would have never put together a Relic if I didn't do my research first. MYTHICS ARE THE ONLY AM THAT PROC DURING A WS AND THE ONLY WS THEY PROC DURING IS THEIR MYTHIC.

So whatever you think the argument was for Almace on RDM, you are wrong, just like they are wrong for thinking that CDC + Aftermath for Almace is a good thing for a RDM because it implies that you are going to an event with an extended boss fight with temp support and that you aren't needed for CCS, which means you should have come an actual DD if you really cared about rocking that parse and getting all elitest. If you are going around and murdering small groups of mobs Excal wins and that's what you should be doing. Being able to WS more quickly because of not only the better/faster TP generation of an Ephemeron offhand not to mention the additional affect of even more TP is what is going to kill your mobs faster so that you can keep moving on. The AM that may or may not be relevant at all, will not, nor will throwing a 900 damage CDC that didn't crit and you got unlucky with double attacks.

Pretending an Almace AM is going to pay off because you're too lazy to make an Excal for RDM after you made an Almace for BLU is just insulting for the rest of the people that actually took the time to be the best they could be for RDM. That's what Saevel and NQ are doing. Boo hoo Relics are expensive and PLD is crappy so I'll just say Almace is better and mislead a bunch of people to make me feel better. Grow up.

[Demon6324236]

Like I said, Ill parse both in a number of situations & gear sets once I 99 them both, so Ill get back to ya in about 2~3 months depending on if I feel like doing hundreds of Qilin or not.

[saevel]

Jesus ...

Mana you really need to learn the mechanics behind damage. Your sounding like a noob right now.

Go look up Moten's DPS sheets, pull the RDM one out. You can fit in various gear levels and it's pretty good at predicting what your average damage will be. You can go so far as to put in Dia III and the ODD rates of the various weapons.

That is what we've been basing our info on, rather then just spouting off random stuff.

Everyone here should know me and NQ really don't get along, yet we're both actually agreeing on something. That alone should speak volumes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

As much as I dislike Saevel he has brought more to the argument than your anecdotal evidence you "think" is correct.

[Demon6324236]

Well in my opinion the best ammos you can go with for RDM TPing would be White Tathlum for STP, Astrolabe for the 1STR/3Acc, or use a Killer Shortbow. As for neck Houyi's is nice for Acc/STP until you get a Portus, at which point Portus dominates of course.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Tathlum/Smart Grenade/Astrolabe are pretty much identical if you don't need accuracy with Astro/Oneiros slightly ahead if you do

Rancor is best neck short of Portus, screw that damn Diabolos (there isn't a giant difference between either)

EDIT: Flame Sachet is also an option, and also pretty much the same as the others