The Melee Mage

[Ordoric]

reverned mail for whm need we say more

[zataz]

i solo alot on my rdm and i love it. i mean if they add stuff great if not thats fine too. i do the best i can do with what they give me. ill tell u what i dont like is how enspells dont effect the attack round after a ws. >.> how many of u notice that?

ps i mean right after the ws

[Tile]

i solo alot on my rdm and i love it. i mean if they add stuff great if not thats fine too. i do the best i can do with what they give me. ill tell u what i dont like is how enspells dont effect the attack round after a ws. >.> how many of u notice that?

ps i mean right after the ws

same thing with dance, seems to only happen when you get the delay just right and you Melee in the middle of you WS.

[Slvr_Stryker]

Looking through this thread, I see a lot of throwing around of the jobs "Red Mage" and "Blue Mage" without really looking back at how these jobs were more or less created and designed, so I think it's time for all of us to get a little bit of a history lesson, thanks to the fine people at the Final Fantasy Wiki (yeah, I know, lolfacts from an easily-editable wiki, but it's the closest thing I have ^^; ).

Red Mage
Traditionally, Red Mages of yore have been able to do a number of things available to them, from casting both White and Black Magic to being able to go toe-to-toe with even the most gruesome monsters with their readily-available list of swords and predominantly-heavier-than-other-mages armor selection. So, since they can do all of this, they are very clearly the best classes in all of the games they're in, right? Well...yes and no.

However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it.

The term "jack of all trades, master of none" is thrown around quite a bit in regard to how Red Mages actually work, and in a sense, it's probably the best term to use. A solid Red Mage can be slotted in anywhere where there's a gap. Need a competent healer, and there isn't a White Mage around to throw its potent cures? Snag a Red Mage. Looking for some magic assistance, but there isn't a Black Mage to cast Firaga? Red Mages can throw in Fira on their end, maybe even to the point where the Red Mage in question can cast it twice in succession due to Dualcast (which I still think should be implemented in FFXI, it would really bring a spark back to RDMs again without overpowering them). Hell, can't find someone who can deal copious amounts of physical damage? Red Mages can use swords pretty efficiently. They can take a few hits before going down, too. Red Mages are not *specialists*, but their versatility is what makes them desirable, because while they can't do what other classes can, they can still hold their own by being able to do so many things that would require a combination of 3 separate classes.
In Final Fantasy XI's case, it really isn't all that different. Yes, SE has predominantly thrown them into a more "back-line" category with their spell and equipment listing (and for that matter, so has a loooooooooooooot of the player base, myself included in a way), but that does not mean that they can't throw down in the thick of things. They can still throw out fairly decent melee numbers while also having the ability to step back and sling magic around. It's not going to be as effective as, say, a White Mage throwing around his or her curing spells, or a Black Mage nuking down a magically-weak monster, but it will still be effective. The main thing that the players, and the Red Mages themselves, need to learn is when to go from one thing to another. They need to know when they need to put on their swords, step up to the plate, and swing away. Likewise, they need to know when to step back and let the magical aspect of them shine forth. Just because you are a master of none does not mean you need to have all these new things, then complain when a more specialized job gets something that makes sense in a specialization aspect. All it means is that you need to prepare yourself for any situation, with the spells and the gear that you have, and react accordingly.

Blue Mage
Traditionally speaking, Blue Mages have always been the odd man out in any game that they're in.

Blue Mages, as their name implies, focus on Blue Magic, a special subset of Magic that allows them to use attacks otherwise exclusive to enemies.

As above states, they have a really odd placement in any party, regardless of where they are. And yet, Blue Mages are probably the most fun to train up, due to their completely varied versatility in learning their Blue Magic. Their spells will always be able to surprise and astonish both friend and foe, as well as even producing completely varied results.
There's another thing that a lot of people tend to forget about the Blue Mage:

Beyond this, Blue Mages vary in equipment and physical prowess. They are not as weak as other Mage classes in terms of attack or defense, and are usually capable fighters. Of course, their true strength is their magic.

That first sentence catches my eye the most, which basically says that no two Blue Mages are alike on the physical side. You can't really compare Strago Magus to Khimari Ronso, or Quistis Trepe to Quina Quen, because the only real similarities are due to the fact that they can not only learn abilities from the monsters they fight and slay, but turn around and deliver them in an equally, if not greater, effect upon other foes they face.
Final Fantasy XI's Blue Mages seem to continue this very odd trend. While they may have very great (A-, compared to a Paladin's A+) proficiency in using a sword, their physical armor tends to hold back on just about the same type of gear a Red Mage can use. Also on the forefront are a Blue Mage's stats. Go ahead, do a comparison on the FFXI Stat Calculator between a no-subbed Hume Blue Mage and a no-subbed Hume Red Mage.
...
Surprising, isn't it? While both classes have the exact same HP and MP, the Red Mage ultimately pulls ahead in all but VIT and AGI, while the Blue Mage's stats remain *dead even throughout*. And yet, Blue Mages are almost universally shown to be in a more physical light, while being able to cast magic even at the front lines. Why is this? Because of Blue Magic. It is that magic that gives a Blue Mage not only a physical leg up on Red Mages, but is also a source of their versatility, in a way.
On paper, Blue Mages can do virtually anything that almost any job can do. Hell, looking at the first 20 levels of a Blue Mage's career, they can give themselves 50% more defense, give themselves or their entire party a (fairly weak, but still noticeable) HP boost, debuff monsters in ways that no other job will even think about until later levels, play crowd control via putting monsters around them to sleep, all while dealing plenty of damage to their foes. But in practice, they cannot do this.
SE was smart enough to realize that, if Blue Mages had access to all of their spells, they would be the most broken job in the game, so they limited us in two ways: the set point limitation, where every spell costs a certain amount of spells to set for usage, and ultimately limiting the number of spells we can set up period. Those two restrictions cut down on a Blue Mage's versatility to the point where it, too, has to choose what it ultimately needs to do. Do we run in, swords-a-swinging, pumping out WS-comparable damage with our physical spells? Or do we step back and support with our fairly-lackluster-yet-still-useful list of debuffs, nukes, and cures? The difference between how Red Mage reacts and how Blue Mage reacts differs: while Red Mages can just suit up to the change when it happens, Blue Mages need to take time to set themselves up correctly, so they almost have to try and predict what's going to happen *well* before it actually happens, which is a bad thing when something completely unexpected happens out of nowhere.

Ultimately, however, it really depends on how a player chooses to prepare and set himself, as well as how the general populace learns to see things in turn with the respective jobs. You want to learn how to melee effectively on Red Mage? Awesome, more power to you...just learn when it's appropriate to turn the dial back and focus more on the magic. Really, the same goes to any melee back-liner out there; WHMs, BLMs, SMNs, even BRDs and SCHs. It's possible, and if you can pull it off, all the more power to you, I have no qualms over you doing things that are fun and exciting (believe me, you haven't seen anything until you've seen a SCH single-handedly tank Poisonhand Gnadgad in Campaign...and survive). Hell, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a lot more "back-line" jobs step up and get to swinging, as well as gear that supports that ideal. But when the chips are down and it's time to do the role everyone expects you to do, don't sit there and say "no way, I'm playing how I want to play", because that ultimately creates disastrous results. Learn your job first. Toy around with the extra stuff later. =)

[Economizer]

Also on the forefront are a Blue Mage's stats. Go ahead, do a comparison on the FFXI Stat Calculator between a no-subbed Hume Blue Mage and a no-subbed Hume Red Mage.
...
Surprising, isn't it? While both classes have the exact same HP and MP, the Red Mage ultimately pulls ahead in all but VIT and AGI, while the Blue Mage's stats remain *dead even throughout*. And yet, Blue Mages are almost universally shown to be in a more physical light, while being able to cast magic even at the front lines.

...

Have you ever even set spells on Blue Mage?

I actually have a relevant quote that sums up what I feel about this:

Learn your job first.

[Lisotte]

Isn't the term "melee mage" kinda oxymoronic?

[Sunrider]

Isn't the term "melee mage" kinda oxymoronic?

No, it kinda isn't.

[Mirage]

Gandalf meleed too! Now and then.

[Slvr_Stryker]

[[ comes in about a weekend later to look over things after going to an anime convention ]] ...hmm, someone trying to throw me for a loop by trying to correct me. Okay, let's see what I can do with this.

Have I ever set spells on Blue Mage? Yes. Do I know what most all of those spells do to our stats? Yes. Should I have clarified that the base stats were excluding stat boosts through set spells? Yeah, probably. But my above point still remains. Hell, it kinda even strengthens the fact that Square Enix, in their "wisdom" (whether you believe it to be or not) have set up Blue Mage in Final Fantasy XI to be that niche job. I was not lying when I said that their Blue Magic was what brings their uniqueness, because it truly is. From the wide variety of spell effects and damage output we could potentially provide, to the extra bonuses (and penalties, lest we forget) to our primary stats that a *very* large chunk of spells give to us, it is what allows us to become virtually anything. With planning.
And just so you don't think I forget about it, yes, I am incredibly aware of the very *short* range of a lot of our spells. A very large chunk of *all* of our spells require us to be within range of magic damage, with half of that being right next to the nasty thing and be affected by everything the monster can throw at us. But the facts still remain: statistically, without merits or any spells, BLUs have almost identical stats across the board, and in virtually all cases, are either weaker or on-par with the stats of a similarly-raced, non-geared, non-merited RDM.
Oh, and just so you think I'm not pulling all of this out of my ass, here are some numbers for you.
1: I started this game back in 2004. On PS2. Stayed on that system until only recently, likely about 6 months ago. Started Monk, made my mistakes (trust me, I still do from time-to-time), and I never *ever* consider myself the best player.
2: Picked up Blue Mage back when ToAU was first released, due to my like of playing with Blue Mages in previous FF games (granted, I never played them way back when 5/6 were around, but I still enjoyed it), and proceeded to learn its strengths and weaknesses. I'm *still* learning its strengths and weaknesses, and through that constant learning process, I learned my job *miles* better than your everyday BLU. I do still have faults (I'm terrible at tanking as a BLU, trust me. @_@), but it is, in my eye, my second top-tier job. I may not be the best, but I have seen and dealt with much worse.
So before you try and turn my quote around on me, it miiiiiiiiiiight help to do a little research yourself, mister Thelaughingman. I mean, you don't see me trying to attack your WHM, SCH, SMN, and THF based on misunderstood, non-clarified information on your part, do you? Oh, and hey, grats on the Gambanteinn, may you kick all sorts of ass with it. ^^

[Economizer]

Oh, and just so you think I'm not pulling all of this out of my ass,

What job we have leveled on a particular character doesn't make for a very good argument. Good arguments make for a good argument.

But the facts still remain: statistically, without merits or any spells, BLUs have almost identical stats across the board, and in virtually all cases, are either weaker or on-par with the stats of a similarly-raced, non-geared, non-merited RDM.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

This statistic is completely useless because it doesn't give any meaningful information. Nobody reasonably plays Blue Mage without setting spells, wearing gear, or meriting. Those things have more meaning on what Blue Mage is then what base stats it has will ever mean.

Blue Mages set spells. Those change stats. They give job traits. Blue Mage gets more numerous and way better job traits for melee than nuking, and physical spells to match. Those physical spells have their accuracy affected by your melee weapon as well, and are generally cheaper and faster casting then magical Blue spells. Blue Mage gets slapped on good melee gear on a regular basis as well.

Ultimately, if you don't want to be told to learn how to play a job, don't go into a thread with people who clearly know how to play their jobs and tell them to learn their job. And especially don't do it after failing to recognize what Blue Mage is especially good at out of all the things it is good at.

As for talking about White Mage, Scholar, or Summoner, this is a melee mage thread. If you need clarification on anything I've said, I'll give it to you in detail. I'd enjoy actually talking about the thread topic.