FFXI fixed!

[Sarick]

Never. Because the event is not designed to put out that gear. If it worked like I suggested a while ago, lots of people would be wearing it. Right now, everyone wants to shoot for the top, so they aim at F100. But if they get 99, which is already impressive, they get nothing out of it. That's why I said it should reward people depending on how they perform. Giving them a F80 win if they get to 90+ (even without aiming for 80 specifically) would fix that. Then people would still shoot for 100, but would also be rewarded depending on how good they did.

Again, you think nothing of tiered difficulty to suit everyone. The people who want rewards don't deserve it if they can't find a way to get it by hook or crook. It still doesn't give people who fail a chance to get the same gear.

Also, in your example you suggest dumbing down the artificial difficulty in the the event making it easier. I don't know how you can say I what more challenging content on one hand. Then on the other hand say these events should be dumbed down"

Yes, it'll make people do the event more because the artificial difficulty level is decreased. It won't create a new higher tier, it'll just be an easier content requirement everyone to compete in.

Maybe you do have some creativity after all. Anything else you want to suggest since the solutions you offered where universal easy buttons for everyone.

[Demon6324236]

Again, you think nothing of tiered difficulty to suit everyone only. The people who want rewards don't deserve it if they can't find a way to get it by hook or crook. It still doesn't give people who fail a chance to get the same gear.

Also, in your example it ask to dumb down the event making it easier. I don't know how you can say I what more challenging content on one hand. Then on the other hand say these events need dumbed down"

Yes, it'll make people do the event more because the artificial difficulty level is decreased. It won't create a higher tier it'll just be the same requirement everyone to complete it in the dumbed down version.

Maybe you do have some creativity after all. Anything else you want to suggest since you've offered a universal easy button for everyone?

Ok easy way to say things. Neo-Nyzul did what is being asked for except it has way to much luck involved, if the majority of the event was skill based it could work. 5 sets of gear, they get better as they go up. If you are a better player and have better gear you have a better chance at the stronger gear. However the gear below it is more attainable and will also help you to get closer to the highest tier.

What he said also does not make it easier, it makes it so when you do a run to attempt floor 100 you do not end up with nothing for your attempt, even VW got that part right, you always get something, even if only logs. NNI basically is a big roll of the die with some luck mixed in, but if you set your goal at 80, and get an amazing run with 10 minutes left and could make those 20 floors, you just got screwed. The boss floors should be a KI, and the ability to drop a piece of gear, as they are now. However at the same time they should be somewhat a bonus or a difficult bump in the road, you should not have to stop there to get any reward at all.

Thats not to say this idea is without flaw though. I myself have alot of friends, but very few who I world well with that are well geared enough to do NNI. Now I could go find a better group with better gear, but I wouldn't work as well with them most likely, and groups like that are prone to break sooner than a group of friends who know eachother. These are just a few problems with the idea, but it would work well if done right, NNI is to luck based, but if alot of that luck were replaced with skill, I would see it as what is being asked for. A piece of content with hard difficulty, has tiered rewards based on the skill of the group, everyone can set a goal and try to get it, then use the gear from it to climb higher if they so choose, and overall it would work to make players strive to attain their gear and better themselves.

I wont lie, I haven't read most of the last 5 pages as its seemed like a stupid/pointless argument between 2 people, but I wanted to through my opinion in on what seems to be asked for through my quick gaze of posts, and saw something NNI related, which made me think of how close it seems to be to the goal I think is trying to be achieved.

[Sarick]

He just wants to reduce the artificial difficulty generated by a luck based system. I'm perfectly aware of that. Don't you think the artificial difficulty is part of what makes the content harder? If it isn't making it content easier by removing these flaws then how is it staying the same difficulty level?

If SE removed those randoms then they'd have to introduce new challenges to keep the difficulty/time sink they want.

[detlef]

Nobody takes +2/+3 etc Nyzul gear seriously. Not even SE, which is why you can't even store it.

[Sarick]

Although, I've been arguing with Arcon some time now I do agree with some of his points. I disagree completely with his recent statement that the lower gear is worthwhile. We agree almost entirely with the exception of alternate routes players can receive the same HQ gear. I wanted a back door available for when players fail or don't manage to progress. I explained that there could be many factors that aren't easily recognizable. He was firmly dead set against it.

When I looked at this view I saw it much like SE's version of skilling up guard pre-update. It was setup so the only way you could get skill is by successful guards. This meant in order to skill up one had to go though extreme measures just to reach the goal of capped skill. This is much like how some of the systems are setup today. The way I see Arcon fixing things was he wanting to just raise the skill up rate for each success. Under this method we'd still need to successfully block to get rewarded. It just wasn't enough even if every single block gave a tiny reward.

The last update brought about a change where not only do you get rewarded for succeeding but also in the failures as a lower skill up reward. This would be the performance points I mentioned. In the long run. if the backup system had this subset to encourage players they wouldn't be forced to one path, they'd always get rewarded through a backdoor. They'd gain experience both in participation skill and long term goals that would build over time. The natural real life limitations would be less of an issue under this setup.

On an ending note, It's actually pointless to explain this if the benefits go through deef ears. Anyway, Arcon already conceded in an earlier response to some extent so I'm content with that.

[Demon6324236]

He just wants to reduce the artificial difficulty generated by a luck based system.

Oh, well then I completely agree with him.

I'm perfectly aware of that.

You rather have items go to lucky people while effort is made to be pointless?

Don't you think the artificial difficulty is part of what makes the content harder?

If by harder you mean more annoying, yes. I do not like my life being decided by a roll of a die, I rather my skill effect what I get.

If it isn't making it content easier by removing these flaws then how is it staying the same difficulty level?

Make Nyzul harder by skill, and take less luck, you will not have an easier event, might have a harder event if done right, but at least it wouldn't be a giant die roll every day with skill just being a little better chance at rolling a good number.

If SE removed those randoms then they'd have to introduce new challenges to keep the difficulty/time sink they want.

I would love new challenges, I would hate more luck based things. I have no idea who would like to spam Qilin 500+ times for a single dagger, that does not seem enjoyable to me in any way shape or form. Luck is good, but there is a limit, and this game has passed that limit a few times, VW & NNI are great examples.

[Sarick]

Oh, well then I completely agree with him. You rather have items go to lucky people while effort is made to be pointless? If by harder you mean more annoying, yes. I do not like my life being decided by a roll of a die, I rather my skill effect what I get.

It's pointless arguing with you on these aspects as I agree with them too.

Make Nyzul harder by skill, and take less luck, you will not have an easier event, might have a harder event if done right, but at least it wouldn't be a giant die roll every day with skill just being a little better chance at rolling a good number. I would love new challenges, I would hate more luck based things.

It's pointless arguing with you on these aspects as I agree with them as well. I only disagreed that that gear rewards for lower tiers was junk. I thought I added something along the lines "If they remove the artificial difficulty they'll have to make it harder another way." I'm not sure if I said this because it's late and I'm tired.

I have no idea who would like to spam Qilin 500+ times for a single dagger, that does not seem enjoyable to me in any way shape or form. Luck is good, but there is a limit, and this game has passed that limit a few times, VW & NNI are great examples.

I agree here to a large extent, what I've been fighting with him over is the right for a back door where failed attempts had some rewards for effort. Nothing you've posted above I won't argue with because, I agree with it. That quote of mine implies "He ONLY wants this" it meant other paths for getting the same rewards are non-negotiable.

Do, you feel better now knowing that I'm not against fixing the system only improving on what people already want?

[Arcon]

There is better stuff players can use. Frank supports my stance on this and posed a unique argument. Your denial only exist because you have no other defense. It's the community who ultimately decides if they think it's good or not not you or me. I think it's total junk and I have every right to say this.

On a further note I didn't see any of the lower tier equipment in your equip history. I wonder why...

See everything I said in my last post.

Come up with a compromise that puts the items in all tiers without "force feeding" your personal bias.

Why would I come up with a compromise with that when that is precisely what I do not want? It's as if someone suggested to add healing magic to a BRD and you said "You can't even think of a compromise with no healing magic for a BRD!", it's an entirely pointless argument. It's not a compromise if the very thing want is not being considered. You want me to give up my idea entirely in favor of yours. Fuck that.

You know the 'If you can't beat it you don't deserve it, GTFO" mentality.' I urge you to at least try to show a little bit of ingenuity and creativeness. I really doubt you have the skills or patience to do this. If you can't come up with an alternative compromise then you should just try harder. Are you up to the challenge or do you not have the skill set to be creative?

I'm as creative as a loaf of bread. I won't even pretend otherwise. Yet the example I gave in my previous post about Nyzul is already a good start.

If you say no, then you're hypocrite. Why, I offered you a challenge. If we base this around your methodology people who can't conform don't deserve reward.

I don't want a reward from you. Unless that reward is you shutting the hell up already. Regardless, see my last example.

I'll bring up a famous quote of relevance by George Santayana. He said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." I think the games hardcore history speaks for itself.

Famous yes, relevant no. Here's a non-famous but relevant quote: "Don't make up shit that isn't related to the discussion." Another thing you don't seem to understand is that my solution would not make things worse, only better. Now we have hardcore-mode only. With this suggestion we'd have hardcore-mode but also lower difficulty settings. So why exactly is this bad? Right now we already have content that distinguishes people, and you seem to be convinced that SE is unable to change, so we'll keep having hardcore content that regular players can't clear, right? So what exactly is your point? "No, this is a bad idea because it'll be like it already is only slightly better"?

Again, you think nothing of tiered difficulty to suit everyone only. The people who want rewards don't deserve it if they can't find a way to get it by hook or crook. It still doesn't give people who fail a chance to get the same gear.

Fucking yes. People who fail should not get the gear. That's the entire point. Don't tell me you missed that while arguing for the entire thread?

Also, in your example you suggest dumbing down the artificial difficulty in the the event making it easier. I don't know how you can say I what more challenging content on one hand. Then on the other hand say these events should be dumbed down"

Fucking yes, again. Artificial difficulty and challenge are not the same thing. Artificial difficulty is giving a bunny outside of San d'Oria a TP move that deals 500 damage. That's not a challenge though, it's unfair and entirely luck-based, the only way to win against that is to hope they don't use it. There's zero challenge involved. Challenge would be to give them TP moves that you can survive but with a certain strategy. Use conal moves with a long enough charge time for example. That would at least involve some skill to survive. What I suggested was reducing the artificial difficulty, not the actual challenge. Do you think Nyzul would be easy to clear with what I suggested? You'd still better bring 4 good DDs and Enhancing Magic capped SCH or you'll likely still fail.

That quote of mine implies "He ONLY wants this" it meant other paths for getting the same rewards are non-negotiable.

Wrong, I don't mind other paths at all. I had no issue with them adding king abjurations to Einherjar, because it was still a challenge to get to him and to fight him. What I don't want is a substantially easier way (of course one way will always be the easier one and the other the harder one, but as long as they're comparable in difficulty I still don't mind). I think skill should reward you in a unique way. And I also think the game should motivate people to play with skill. That's about the only things we disagree upon.

[Sarick]

See everything I said in my last post.

yes. People who fail should not get the gear. That's the entire point. Don't tell me you missed that while arguing for the entire thread?

Cussing removed from original quote because it valuates the terms of service agreement I agreed to.

So it does come down to you being an evil little fart that doesn't want people to have what you can get or the fact they might not have the capability to get. Humm, I wonder where my baseless accusations come from. In your opinion people who might not have the skill sets don't deserve the same equipment you have even if they bust their asses trying for it. I don't see this as very moral for yourself or community.

These are elitist, uncaring, screw the little guy attitudes. It's exactly what I've been getting out of you this whole time. It's the same agenda the original poster wanted. You say you want things to be fixed, you can't fix them yourself. You can't even except that people you deem unworthy should still get the same gear if they work toward it! These are some of the reasons I've been calling you a fraud.

I had no issue with them adding king abjurations to Einherjar, because it was still a challenge to get to him and to fight him. What I don't want is a substantially easier way (of course one way will always be the easier one and the other the harder one, but as long as they're comparable in difficulty I still don't mind). I think skill should reward you in a unique way. And I also think the game should motivate people to play with skill. That's about the only things we disagree upon.

Motivation, doesn't include frustrating people because they're placed in full time hard mode. This isn't how a tier system works. Players also want to enjoy the game and be rewarded different ways. The extra back doors I'm asking for are there to motivate. I've already pointed out some of these back doors are partially there already. You even acknowledged that you wasn't aware of them when you slammed my argument. Looks like SE agrees with me because they added a few of them already.

I mentioned this above and needed to clarify it better.

"You can't even except that people you deem unworthy should still get the same gear if they work toward it!"

The type of work, is dependent on how the subject classifies the effort. You don't classify failure as a valid effort. In your views It's a pure screw you morality that's based on personal bias. It's telling everyone this "You fail! try harder it was a good learning experience but not worthy of reward!" I don't think you realize how bad that makes you look.

The people you are representing aren't the little guys like Joe pink. They represent your elitist views only not SE's or the communities. You want to secretly oppress them if they can't compete on your level. Obscuring this moral logic from the readers view won't protect you or our personal bias, It's just to obvious.

Good God, have some compassion and show some leeway in this department. This won't hurt anyone but the elitist jerks who want to lord over people with their leet gear as they prance around like something special. I don't see how or why you'd object unless you are really are rooting for the pigs who lord over people. If that's the case then you really are the fraud and hypocrite I see you as.

Please go away you make me sick thinking about it.

[Arcon]

Cussing removed from original quote because it valuates the terms of service agreement I agreed to.

[..]

You are full of shit.

So it does come down to you being an evil little fart that doesn't want people to have what you can get or the fact they might not have the capability to get. Humm, I wonder where my baseless accusations come from. In your opinion people who might not have the skill sets don't deserve the same equipment you have even if they bust their asses trying for it. I don't see this as very moral for yourself or community.

What you just said was nothing but baseless accusations, same as always. All of it was wrong and does not reflect what I believe. The entirety of what I said was that people should get the same gear. The only difference between us is that you believe it should be just handed out to everyone, regardless of what they do, whereas I believe SE should try to motivate the people through whatever means to try and be better, and make the content actually by manageable everyone. I'm suggesting to SE to put an effort in to make their content (including their rewards) more accessible. Because right now they aren't.

I believe if you fail content, you should not get the same reward as someone who wins the content. Is that such a foreign concept to you? Because if it is, you're living an entirely different life in an entirely different world. And I'm willing to bet that you're the only one there. But hey, at least they have internet there.

The type of work, is dependent on how the subject classifies the effort. You don't classify failure as a valid effort. In your views It's a pure screw you morality that's based on personal bias. It's telling everyone this "You fail! try harder it was a good learning experience but not worthy of reward!" I don't think you realize how bad that makes you look.

I don't think you realize how bad stupid videos, pictures and names like "Joe pink" make you look. But as usual, you're posting bullshit that I never said or wanted. For example, I never once said that failure shouldn't give you anything. All I said was that failure shouldn't give you the same things as success. And here's the thing: if there were different difficulty tiers, even if you fail the hard content, you could win easier content. In my Nyzul example, if you didn't make it to F100, you could still get a F80 piece. How is that not rewarding?

Please go away you make me sick thinking about it.

Why would I care for you or what you feel? All you've done is stand in the way of proper discussion with your childish attempts and debate, insulting and ignorant. This is not your feelgood-place, this is a forum where everyone gets to discuss their opinions. If it makes you feel sick it's you who should leave.