FFXI fixed!

[Demon6324236]

You all fail because you play this antique...

Some people still find 1985 Mario on NES hard some find it easy to beat in 4min. i would never brag about beating any old tittle like you guys do, its quite funny lol

Slight difference, Mario doesn't get updated with new content on a monthly basis and have armys of people playing it together.

[Arcon]

Again you miss the point and assume that Joe pink can compete on that level. I explained this already that everyone has a natural limit to skill. Under my setup where its available in all pools Joe Pink could WORK FOR IT. Under the setup where only advance players get it Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell.

Again you miss the point that it is not about competition. That's already why you Olympic games comparison failed. Just because someone gets gold here does not mean that it precludes others from getting it as well. About the pool thing..

Then why didn't you just say that "It should be in everyone's pool?" This single statement is the compromise. Show me where you said this exact sentence in an old post edited before today? I think I can read through my previous post where I pointed this out and you gave it the finger when you said "This is not enough." If you can find that then I'll apologize if not then hopefully you can see the fault isn't on my end.

You misunderstood what I meant, although I admit my wording was ambiguous. I forgot we were talking about the OP's idea and was talking about skill requirements in general. What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

What do you mean by natural skill limit? Are you saying some people are so bad that they can't improve to a point that they'd be useful to a group? If that's true I've yet to meet someone like that and I've met a lot of people. Unless, of course, you're talking about someone with a mental disability, but if you think the game should be designed around them I'm done arguing with you.

This is where you missed something, the increased challenge mode would offer this. Meaning the mob is tougher. I really don't see how you could misinterpret this Frank explained it why back when he introduced Joe Pink with the dynamis example.

And even back then I said why that was a bad example. First of all, whether I get a relic in two or four months makes no difference to me. I'm not in a rush. I play this game casually, it's a pastime. Secondly, it does not even require any skills at all, because you can just make the money from other sources that require less skill and give more money (like FC parties, for example). I never farmed Dyna at all and I have a relic too, and I got it faster than most Dynamis farmers.

If you're able to make $100,000 a year vs someone who can make $20,000 a year at a different job with vastly different skill sets, how is this not rewarding?

Because money is not what I'm looking for. It's compensation for my time and effort, not a reward. I don't look forward to do a job for the money, I do it begrudgingly waiting to get paid. That's the first reason why it doesn't compare to this situation.

The second is that it's not about "more" or "less" rewarding, but about the kind of reward. I never argued that it isn't "more" rewarding, but I told you specifically that that wasn't what I was looking for. It's about quality over quantity. Skill should be rewarded in an unique way, not just more of the same. Why doesn't every event just reward us moat carps, more or less depending on the difficulty. And we could rank items and make them redeemable with a certain number of carps. That's essentially what you're suggesting.

No evidence? Does god exist? If you say yes or no and I say "Prove it" I doubt you'll convince me either direction if I want to disagree just to disagree. I think this is known as Occam's razor because it shifts the burden of proof. I'm sure you don't need to hit the link.

That's exactly why you shouldn't be making these kinds of accusations. Pointless throwing around claims that you can't back up at all.

Then why have you been arguing with me this whole time? Did you feel the need to defend yourself on something you agreed with? I wouldn't pose these types of questions or make assumptions if I didn't see reason for them.

We don't agree, and I don't think you understood what I meant. You're suggesting:
Tier 1: 10% drop rate of desired item (noobs go here)
Tier 2: 50% drop rate of desired item (made for average people)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of desired item (made for the elitist scum)

What I'm suggesting is the following:
Tier 1: 100% drop rate of LQ item (requires attendance)
Tier 2: 100% drop rate of NQ item (requires patience and strategy)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of HQ item (requires preparation, coordination and effort)

The reason why you assume my idea is bad is because you think some people will never be able to complete tier 3. Why do you say that? Have you seen the T3 already, even though it's just in my head so far? How can you qualify that statement without knowing the actual difficulty?

I already told why one bad player is no reason this wouldn't work: because the group can even it out. I already said it should not require perfect gear. I also said it should not be unforgiving (like Legion currently is because of the time limit). No one mistake should kill the run. It should be something that's accessible and possible to beat even with average players if they play well. Sure, they wouldn't be able to clear it every time, but I see no issue with that (and neither do you, because that's precisely your argument).

When I say it should reward skill you jumped at the conclusion that it should be absolutely impossible to beat if you don't do everything perfectly, all the time. That was an assumption on your part. I told you what seems like a million times by now that I don't want to exclude anyone from getting a shot at the win. Only that it should require effort. It's ok to completely wipe the first ten attempts. Make smaller rewards along the way. Like Legion when clearing the first wave. That way a group can watch their own progress as they build their skills and gain practice in that event. That is how people learn to play better, and it's the only way.

A constant stream of mediocre content will not produce skilled players, no matter their potential.

You've put nothing on the table since we've started arguing. Nothing, to address the issues only to say that's not enough or I want more? What do you expect here obedience or straight up compliance? The only thing you've done is pushed the fact that you don't like the current system, suggestions or my way of saying how I feel about the them.

Wrong. Again. I told you many times before, in this very thread, that I do like the current system. I am happy with the way the game is right now. Unlike you, it would seem, because currently it's already the way I suggested it, only without the different difficulty levels. Instead there's content exclusively catered to high-level players. What I'm basically suggesting is to introduce lower difficulty Legion tiers which people could use to gain skill and experience in that particular event, because right now it's designed to exclude untrained/inexperienced players. And that's not because it's insanely difficult, but because it's expensive and unforgiving, which means people don't get the chance to just go in and get experience with it, they don't get to improve with practice at all. They either have a high-level group to tackle the content with already or they don't. That's what this suggestion would remedy.

[Sarick]

Again you miss the point that it is not about competition. That's already why you Olympic games comparison failed. Just because someone gets gold here does not mean that it precludes others from getting it as well. About the pool thing.

You try really really hard to undermined any examples or alternatives no matter how clear or what they're based on if it doesn't suit your bias. Take off the glasses. I understand the comparison my friends do as well, it's just you and the opposition that can't grasp it.

You misunderstood what I meant, although I admit my wording was ambiguous. I forgot we were talking about the OP's idea and was talking about skill requirements in general. What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

I didn't misunderstand anything here, you're trying to shift fault on me. Let's make this clear you're the one who wrote it not me. I assume when someone says "Everyone" It means everyone. Don't try and weasel your way out of a mistake that's clearly your fault or try and pin it on me again. You keep saying one thing then contradicting yourself in an effort to (I assume) confuse people.

Let me explain something. In Japan there is a saying about demons, their weaknesses and, how to defend yourself from them. It go's something like this "If you know the demons name you have power over it." For clarification I'm referring about the tactic not you directly. Maybe you assume I'm arguing wrong. I just recognize the what's going on and take advantage of it.

What do you mean by natural skill limit? Are you saying some people are so bad that they can't improve to a point that they'd be useful to a group? If that's true I've yet to meet someone like that and I've met a lot of people. Unless, of course, you're talking about someone with a mental disability, but if you think the game should be designed around them I'm done arguing with you.

I'm saying limiting factors in a broad scope of things not just a high degree of mental disability that you painted a picture of. My guess is you over read my Olympics example to extremes. I did say something along the lines of "lesser extent" when I posted that. As for the scope, I made a mini list of multiple things that can limit Joe pink. Again, you missed something I wrote in a previous post. I don't like repeating this list because each point branchs out into sub factors that also need explained in detail. Please go recap.

Secondly, Did you see the post I made a few pages back that had Jimmy Leet as a minority, Jack Normal as a majority and Joe Pink as a minority. I thin placed an arrow toward Jack Normal and said something along with it. I'll let you recap since you missed/ignored that as well.

Another, thing I posted in a previous comment was related to the easy button, too weak, low quality mode being for wins, maybe atmas and percepts. I didn't misdirect this because it would still be available if Joe Pink had earned the win on the weakest setting for some item.

Do you remember the update before last SE added the ability to make some items that could be rebuilt later with the inclusion that the player had to have access to the content? Well, I assumed that everyone would get that access under the lower tier setup anyway if needed just getting the base wins. The reason for my reactions are because the multiple times people said that only casual or greater would have access.

Judging by your outlook you missed these fine details when I explained the balance way back. I don't condemn you for failing to recognize this because it's not something the average person would see above the surface when looking into deep water. I also didn't go into details here because I assumed you'd already known this.

And even back then I said why that was a bad example. First of all, whether I get a relic in two or four months makes no difference to me. I'm not in a rush. I play this game casually, it's a pastime. Secondly, it does not even require any skills at all, because you can just make the money from other sources that require less skill and give more money (like FC parties, for example). I never farmed Dyna at all and I have a relic too, and I got it faster than most Dynamis farmers.

Because money is not what I'm looking for. It's compensation for my time and effort, not a reward. I don't look forward to do a job for the money, I do it begrudgingly waiting to get paid. That's the first reason why it doesn't compare to this situation.

The second is that it's not about "more" or "less" rewarding, but about the kind of reward. I never argued that it isn't "more" rewarding, but I told you specifically that that wasn't what I was looking for. It's about quality over quantity. Skill should be rewarded in an unique way, not just more of the same. Why doesn't every event just reward us moat carps, more or less depending on the difficulty. And we could rank items and make them redeemable with a certain number of carps. That's essentially what you're suggesting.

It is not a bad example unless you have a skewed perception on what everyone wants. Again you missed something. I commented on this in the last post where the lawyer and teacher both at different levels can find things rewarding in different ways yet be on a different scale of income. You went directly after the money as the subject not the means to how rewarding it is or is not.

In that respect, you're unqualified to represent this outside your own personal interest. Since you can't be satisfied by it you deem it completely irrelevant as a solution and can't grasp differing levels of satisfaction/reward I doubt you can grasp balance. After all, this solution isn't just about you. It's very obvious this is another conflict of interest and it's skewed by personal bias on your part.

The purpose was to be a general encouragement that represents as many players as possible without adding the extra baggage of new special content.

That's exactly why you shouldn't be making these kinds of accusations. Pointless throwing around claims that you can't back up at all.

This again, If I didn't have something that could be proven/or disproved I'll go with the most straight forward reasoning. Good or bad this has won wars saved lives etc. Granted this type of logic isn't perfect but in general everyone makes these choices every day and they don't even realize it.

I have examples like the one above when you contradict yourself then change views blaming it on my misinterpretation. That confirms at least one of these pointless accusations has some merit. The others are left totally at the discretion of the reader. Given the post pool it wouldn't be difficult to ascertain this. Does this upset you?, if you are innocent I'd assume the evidence would be in your favor when the readers determine this.

We don't agree, and I don't think you understood what I meant. You're suggesting:
Tier 1: 10% drop rate of desired item (noobs go here)
Tier 2: 50% drop rate of desired item (made for average people)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of desired item (made for the elitist scum)

What I'm suggesting is the following:
Tier 1: 100% drop rate of LQ item (requires attendance)
Tier 2: 100% drop rate of NQ item (requires patience and strategy)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of HQ item (requires preparation, coordination and effort)

The reason why you assume my idea is bad is because you think some people will never be able to complete tier 3. Why do you say that? Have you seen the T3 already, even though it's just in my head so far? How can you qualify that statement without knowing the actual difficulty?

Oh here we go again, Now it's not everyone but only Jimmy Leet that has access to HQ. Can't you even get your own understanding it check before you post back to back contradictions? All this does is confuse confuse people. As I stated earlier in this post this can be used as a tactic. Not sure if it's intentional and give you the benefit of doubt on this portion.

How can I qualify? I can based this on my experience and the reviews I've seen from the community. It's common knowledge that SE is notorious for making content that is unsuitable for everyone. They try and find an in between hardcore and casual and sometimes fail hard. If you're trying to invalid my reasoning behind this you'll fall short in doing so. Everyone who has any experience with SE/FFXI knows this.

I already told why one bad player is no reason this wouldn't work: because the group can even it out. I already said it should not require perfect gear. I also said it should not be unforgiving (like Legion currently is because of the time limit). No one mistake should kill the run. It should be something that's accessible and possible to beat even with average players if they play well. Sure, they wouldn't be able to clear it every time, but I see no issue with that (and neither do you, because that's precisely your argument).

When I say it should reward skill you jumped at the conclusion that it should be absolutely impossible to beat if you don't do everything perfectly, all the time. That was an assumption on your part. I told you what seems like a million times by now that I don't want to exclude anyone from getting a shot at the win. Only that it should require effort. It's ok to completely wipe the first ten attempts. Make smaller rewards along the way. Like Legion when clearing the first wave. That way a group can watch their own progress as they build their skills and gain practice in that event. That is how people learn to play better, and it's the only way.

A constant stream of mediocre content will not produce skilled players, no matter their potential.

You keep thinking this way, the evidence has shown that if content is increased players have been known to optimize setups or even outright cheat in order to win. It's also shown that if given the option a majority will choose the easiest route to do things this includes but is not limited to special setups, skill sets or previous relationships.

Wrong. Again. I told you many times before, in this very thread, that I do like the current system. I am happy with the way the game is right now. Unlike you, it would seem, because currently it's already the way I suggested it, only without the different difficulty levels. Instead there's content exclusively catered to high-level players. What I'm basically suggesting is to introduce lower difficulty Legion tiers which people could use to gain skill and experience in that particular event, because right now it's designed to exclude untrained/inexperienced players. And that's not because it's insanely difficult, but because it's expensive and unforgiving, which means people don't get the chance to just go in and get experience with it, they don't get to improve with practice at all. They either have a high-level group to tackle the content with already or they don't. That's what this suggestion would remedy.

Yet you offer no solutions other then training wheel courses. I just had to laugh so hard my stomach contents found their way out. What I suggested was alternative routes. It's aways easy teach an old dog new tricks, wrong. Like I said countless times everyone has their own natural ability.

If you try and force something like this then it creates an environment where one or both sides will not be satisfied with. This could cause players to quit out of frustration or boredom. It's rather simple make things equal on a different scale. Just because you have all the time in the world and/or patience not everyone is build the same way.

[Arcon]

You try really really hard to undermined any examples or alternatives no matter how clear or what they're based on if it doesn't suit your bias. Take off the glasses. I understand the comparison my friends do as well, it's just you and the opposition that can't grasp it.

This is the response I've come to expect of you. Whenever I argue something, I present a reason. You don't. Just like now, you just state that it's my fault for not understanding, without any reason for why I might be wrong.

I didn't misunderstand anything, you're trying to shift fault on me. Let's make this clear you're the one who wrote it not me. I assume when someone says "Everyone" It means everyone. Don't try and weasel your way out of a mistake that's clearly your fault or try and pin it on me again. You keep saying one thing then contradicting yourself in an effort to (I assume) confuse people.

Liar. I said apologetically that my wording was ambiguous, thus taking the blame off you. I never faulted you for this. I have no trouble faulting you for the many mistakes you're making in your leaps of logic and groundless accusations. In general you're not very intelligent and stubborn, arrogant, dishonest, and show a few other characteristics that indicate you're a bad human being, but I never once tried to put this on you, not then, not now. I know when I'm at fault, and that was mine, as I said in the previous post already.

I'm saying limiting factors in a broad scope of things not just a high degree of mental disability that you painted a picture of. My guess is you over read my Olympics example to extremes. I did say something along the lines of "lesser extent" when I posted that. As for the scope, I made a mini list of multiple things that can limit Joe pink.

Don't have to recap, just link me to it, because I don't remember any of it. All you said was stuff like "no gear", "no friends" and other general statements like those, every single one of which I responded to.

Secondly, Did you see the post I made a few pages back that had Jimmy Leet as a minority, Jack Normal as a majority and Joe Pink as a minority. I thin placed an arrow toward Jack Normal and said something along with it. I'll let you recap since you missed/ignored that as well.

No, I neither missed nor ignored it, I basically said that very same thing in my last post (yes, the very same that you quoted, and you quoted that same part as well).

Do you remember the update before last SE added the ability to make some items that could be rebuilt later with the inclusion that the player had to have access to the content? Well, I assumed that everyone would get that access under the lower tier setup anyway just getting the base wins. The reason for my reaction because commented multiple times that only casual or greater would have access.

I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. This may also be my fault, because I'm tired of having to read everything into your vague and inarticulate posts.

Oh here we go again, Now it's not everyone but only Jimmy Leet that has access to HQ. Can't you even get your own understanding it check before you post back to back contradictions? All this does is confuse confuse people. As I stated earlier in this post this can be used as a tactic. Not sure if it's intentional and give you the benefit of doubt on this portion.

You're confused. Let me help you: in everyone's pool does not equate that it should drop for each difficulty. Even if it only drops in the highest difficulty pool, if everyone gets a chance at doing that it can still be in everyone's pool. Feel smarter?

You keep thinking this way, the evidence has shown that if content is increased players have been known to optimize setups or even outright cheat in order to win. It's also shown that if given the option a majority will choose the easiest route to do things this includes but is not limited to special setups, skill sets or previous relationships.

Duh? Not sure what your point is. That's why I said I want harder content, so it cannot be cleared by just idling along for a given duration and then collecting your price. Or do you condone that behavior? Or are you saying that because SE have demonstrated incompetence in that regard in the past they should just stop trying?

Yet you offer no solutions other then training wheel courses. I just had to laugh so hard my stomach contents found their way out. What I suggested was alternative routes. YOU think you can teach an old dog new tricks. Like I said countless times everyone has their own natural ability.

What's wrong with the training wheel course? What you suggested was to dumb everything down so that people don't even have to try to get good gear. Because that's all I'm asking.

[Sarick]

I understand everything, just read it all most of it I don't feel like responding to. I did Think of a few things.

You mentioned evidence again.

Let's recap.

Baseless accusations.

I wouldn't feel the need to say these things without some merit. The readers who've read most of the topic can ascertain their own opinions based around the content in it. If you feel threatened about this then you can plea the filth otherwise don't set yourself up for it.

Doesn't know the content

You must not be up to date or don't read about updates. If you win a VW and a leet item drops that you already have you can accept it as a partial item that can be sold and later re-assembled. Anyone can get this item without fighting the enemy 100's of times if they have the clears. They can just choose to buy the parts.

Hardcore content.

Harder content that people can't win, I think I already explained SE's shortcomings here when creating difficulty tiers. Only a minority would have access the others would hate the content and choose to avoid it. I can't stress this enough if you read up on what the community says you'll see this is standard knowledge.

So I'm Liar?

You said this.

It should be in everyone's pool. And I already said that I don't particularly mind that either, but that that's not a solution, because it does not address our problem. Trophy items are just for showing off, and I don't care for that (despite what you like to proclaim).

Then followed up with this.

You misunderstood what I meant, although I admit my wording was ambiguous. I forgot we were talking about the OP's idea and was talking about skill requirements in general. What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

Finially ending with this.

We don't agree, and I don't think you understood what I meant. You're suggesting:
Tier 1: 10% drop rate of desired item (noobs go here)
Tier 2: 50% drop rate of desired item (made for average people)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of desired item (made for the elitist scum)

What I'm suggesting is the following:
Tier 1: 100% drop rate of LQ item (requires attendance)
Tier 2: 100% drop rate of NQ item (requires patience and strategy)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of HQ item (requires preparation, coordination and effort)

No, you said it was ambiguous then followed up with something completely opposite of the definition for "everyone." The word everyone isn't an ambiguous term. It's not left up to interpretation. You see where the first quote says everyone. The second part excuses everything that you said then the last part puts the HQ item in only one tier?

It's right there in front of you are con!

The person who doesn't know the subject history.

Sorry, If you want to argue with me about opinions, relevance or past post you need to know the subject matter/material. Even if I lack grammar skills (I've openly admitted this so no foul here). If you can't keep up with the topic then find someone who can for you like Vinnie.

On a final note I still don't see anything other then a training wheel approach. You think this will teach people to be better? I don't see this doing any good if you give out items of lower tier so Jimmy leet can lord over others. I also recognize that you still want Jimmy Leet items to be given to the hardcore only group without compromise.

This is a major turn off for your argument. I thought you said everyone and was about to call it quits then you came back on and posted something opposite. Luckly I checked back.

[Plasticleg]

this page is like a tale of two cities. could you guys duke it out somewhere where someone will care?

[Sarick]

this page is like a tale of two cities. could you guys duke it out somewhere where someone will care?

Kudos for pointing this out. Hits like button.

Oh, and your name made me laugh when I read it.

[Arcon]

Doesn't know the content

You must not be up to date or don't read about updates. If you win a VW and a leet item drops that you already have you can accept it as a partial item that can be sold and later re-assembled. Anyone can get this item without fighting the enemy 100's of times if they have the clears. They can just choose to buy the parts.

I'm very well aware of this, only your poor choice of words did not make it apparent that that's what you meant. No idea how it relates to anything at all, though.

Hardcore content.

Harder content that people can't win, I think I already explained SE's shortcomings here when creating difficulty tiers. Only a minority would have access the others would hate the content and choose to avoid it. I can't stress this enough if you read up on what the community says you'll see this is standard knowledge.

I know it very well, I don't need to read anything. I even said that myself in this very thread. I do play the game, just so you know. If SE already made it perfectly, there would be no reason to suggest it. That's why these forums are here for. And as I said before, if they failed at it before, should they just give up on it and dumb everything down until no one fails that content anymore?

So I'm Liar?

No, you said it was ambiguous then followed up with something completely opposite of the definition for "everyone." The word everyone isn't an ambiguous term. It's not left up to interpretation.

See my explanation above. You are a liar.

this page is like a tale of two cities. could you guys duke it out somewhere where someone will care?

While it's gotten a bit personal at times, I never felt like it was off-topic. Did you? Why should we go somewhere else?

[Sarick]

I'm very well aware of this, only your poor choice of words did not make it apparent that that's what you meant. No idea how it relates to anything at all, though.


See my explanation above. You are a liar.

You need to edit, I updated my previous post to give evidence.

[Arcon]

No, you said it was ambiguous then followed up with something completely opposite of the definition for "everyone." The word everyone isn't an ambiguous term. It's not left up to interpretation. You see where the first quote says everyone. The second part excuses everything that you said then the last part puts the HQ item in only one tier?

I already explained all of that here:

[..] in everyone's pool does not equate that it should drop for each difficulty. Even if it only drops in the highest difficulty pool, if everyone gets a chance at doing that it can still be in everyone's pool.

Again, just for you:
Elite pool = HQ pool
Elite pool accessible to everyone = everyone gets the chance to play for the HQ pool

And that was my exact wording. Everyone should be able to play the hard content. Hard does not mean exclusive. But it should be challenging. That's why people who aren't that skilled with endgame content can practice on lower difficulties. Once they have that down, they can move up and tackle the challenging content. Note that challenging also doesn't imply unfair. In the end, everyone should be able to access and win the challenging content. Hence everyone gets a shot at the reward.

That is not the opposite of everyone. It's everyone. Stop lying.