FFXI fixed!

[Arcon]

I apologize in advance for the long post, I promise I'll keep my future posts shorter. I won't be repeating things I say in here again, in future I'll just reference them when I have to reply with the same things over and over again because some people just don't get it.

Solution = People doing content on higher levels get higher drop rates, not unique stats or gear.

Wrong. This is not a solution. We say we want something. You say we can't get it and should take something entirely unrelated instead. That's not a solution. It doesn't cater to our request at all.

Which should be enough, if you fight Kaggen, you have 1% chance at a Mekira, you fight Kaggen Hard mode(no atma), you get a 5% chance, you fight Kaggen Very Hard mode(no atma or temps), you get 20% chance, or you fight Kaggen Insanity mode(no atma, temps, or 2-hour abilities) you get a 50% chance. Raising the chances of the rewards as you go up.

I'm not at all saying this is a bad idea. I would jump at that. But it's still not what we're asking for in this thread.

Where exactly did I say "Suck it" in a phrase. It's stuff like this that you can't quote because I never said "Suck it" that may be up to your interpretation but saying words I didn't write shows you grasping at straws.

It's called paraphrasing.

I also said the reason I think it doesn't compare for you is because you feel inadequacy and need something special to make you feel more accomplished then Joe pink.

It doesn't just "not compare for me" it does not compare at all. The reason you think it is doesn't matter and doesn't add anything to this discussion. I could just as well say that you're just a gimp who's scared of not being able to do what us good players can and that's why you're throwing a fit at the idea. But that's just as asinine a statement and I know better than to stoop that low. I guess you don't.

Why I could care less if you got a golden suit of armor to prance around in. I do see others biting their fingernails trying to get the +1 versions and frustration from the hardcore content they are unworthy of. Good going separate the less skilled and disabled players from feeling accomplished.

If you're playing this game to feel accomplished, then how can you not want to be good? If that's what you wanna be, then it's likely you're one of the hardcore gamers. I know many people of all different categories, and people who play to have fun (which you claim should be the norm) do not care for being accomplished, nor do they care for having every piece of gear there is. I know tons of people who will never go after a Defending Ring and who are totally find with that. And if someone does want it, I know they're willing to put the effort in. That is all I'm asking here (only with the luck-aspect removed in this case).

I changed my mind I'm totally not for this, at all then. Why it's people like you that are greedy and want more more more. Destructive greed that causes imbalance has shown me that If there are multiple paths like you ask such in your way then it would further separate the community into haves and have nots pre-abysea. The solution I gave wasn't a dead disagreement it was a compromise. Since you can't compromise then you want to throw it all out window by making an arse of yourself.

As I said above, you just said we can't get have what we want and should be fine with something else entirely. That's not a compromise at all. There's nothing destructive about what I'm suggesting. Every person with more than half a brain cell knows that this is a game. In a game you either play for fun or play to win. If you play for fun, adding new gear doesn't have to interest you in the first place, if the content is no fun for you you simply won't do it. If you play to win then this is precisely what you're playing for: to strife to get the things you want.

Really, how many people have fully upgraded EMPs? Humm, I don't just mean the level 99 versions I mean the FULLY upgraded emps. Take a step back now and tell me do you have a fully upgraded emp? My guess is a fat no. Even the small numbers of players with hardcore skills don't have these. They are a lot of work.

What the hell does this have to do with anything discussed here? This is the complete opposite of what I was asking. Having an empyrean at 99 takes literally zero skill, you can buy the entire thing. And even if you don't buy it but try to farm it, it still takes almost zero skill. Most HMP mobs are laughable. Only the Riftdross/Riftcinder require some amount of planning and strategy, but even then it's not hard to do with people simply think while they're playing.

And for the record, as I said before, I just finished my Mandau. Now I'm working on my Ukonvasara. With current progress it should be Lv99 in about three months' time. I still don't see how this is in any way relevant to the discussion. When I get it it will not prove that I'm hardcore or skilled. It will just prove that I had nothing else that was more important to invest of. The rest is just a matter of time.

My suggestion/compromise would help those hardcore get their gear just faster. If that's not good enough then what is?

Better gear. Your suggestion wouldn't help us get anything that couldn't be gotten another way. It's not a testiment to a player's skill. It's just an item with no more meaning than it had before, and as such is not an incentive to try harder.

Have you been playing to much on the test server to quantify relevance of the live server from these leet items or is it you just need some emotional crutch?

I normally really don't care for personal attacks, but this is really getting old. Your entire argument revolves around me being a showoff or otherwise emotionally needy person. It's getting tiresome to keep having to reply to that. Please say something original for a change.

What are you smoking, Joe pink wouldn't get it, most people might just quit. I've had about 12 people tell me when the last phase of VW was put in they didn't like the direction SE was headed toward obsessively hardcore grinding content. You guessed it these people quit. So much for keeping the veterans with low drop rates for tougher enemies. Even with the (easy mode cheats) not everyone can win. Practice doesn't make perfect.

Yes, that's why Voidwatch sucks ass. Good we agree on something. And this is completely unrelated to anything we have suggested. The thing that made Voidwatch suck (and by extension the thing that made people rage and quit) was the low drop rates. And as I said before, we do not as for more RNG dominated content. We hate it just as much as everyone else.

And Voidwatch is literally so easy that I haven't seen a single shout party that didn't win whatever they were set out to do in almost a year. That was before the weakening items even. Now it's easier. The only harder parts are the high tier Jeuno runs, everything else can be won by everyone. And this is not just an elitist statement, but an observation: because I'm actually seeing every single person who sets out to do a shout run win. This is not my opinion, this is what is actually happening. So you can't be honest when you say that Joe pink can't win it, because he most definitely can.

The truth is Joe Pink would get the big F'you when he ask to join these groups. You really want Joe pink to feel inferior because the players in this game can be real jerks to less skilled players. Go ahead try lie to everyone more. This is what ruins the game and causes people to quit over frustration.

Arguing with you has really lost all of its appeal to me. You have your fingers stuck deep in your ears and are humming, unwilling to hear anything I have to say. Here's the thing though, the only subjective thing I said was that I, personally, don't care about exclusivity or being superior to others. That's the only thing I can't prove. Everything else I said was fact. It's a fact that better items and a better chance at the same items are different things. It's a fact that something like this can be done without the RNG screwing you over. It's a fact that content like this can be made accessible to everyone. It's a fact that most people who play for entertainment don't care about some items being out of their reach (because entertainment is determined by events themselves, not rewards). Absolutely everything you say is based on your belief of what you think is right and what you think I want, none of which seem very convincing to me.

You sit back with the jaded belief that the community wants content like this when the outcry from the majority says otherwise.

Again you're factually wrong. I don't believe that. I can see that some people are opposed to it. I know that there are some people who want it though.

You then insult me for standing up for what I think would harm the community. Good going, I insult you back, excellent compromise.

Again, wrong. I never insulted you at all. I called you daft because after saying something twice before you still didn't get it. And now I told you a third time and you're still prancing around the issue and redirecting everything I say with your personal opinions and unrelated statements. That's a valid reason for calling someone daft. If you replied with something other than how I wanted to show off my epeen I may give you a more pleasant response, but nothing you said so far compelled me to do that.

Poor example, in the game when leveling a character its power increases dynamically each new level. Under your fair system a players skill or natural ability has the ability to reach the same level in skill. This is flawed in itself because everyone learns differently and has inherent limits to their mastery of a given skill. Again, prove me wrong here.

You tell me if the people winning gold metals at the Olympics can be achieved by any random person off the street? No, they worked hard busted their butts and have skill sets that some would call superhuman. Joe pink is an average player and you're standing on your soap box saying I want better stuff to differentiate me from Joe pink so I'm more awesome gear wise. Joe pink doesn't have a chance in hell.

How can you possibly say that without knowing the content? I am not asking for an absolute FFXI ranking, the best gets something that the second-best doesn't. That's you reading bullshit into my words to please your own agenda. Yes, maybe Joe pink will never be as good as Jack silver, but that doesn't mean he can't clear the content required for it under various circumstances, like in a group that negates some of his weak points. I've played with some really big noobs, and everyone I've met in seven years of playing could be molded and taught into a person that was worth having at any event (and I've done literally every event there is or was in FFXI). That's where you're comparison fails (unlike mine). In the Olympics there's only one Gold winner. About seven billion people are worse than them. That's not the case here. Even the second and third and fourth best, and many more can win and thus get the gold medal.

Sure, you may not get an entire alliance of absolutely horrendous people with no one to teach them to clear every content, but that's not even the case right now and that will never be the case. I saw an alliance wipe to Itzpapalotl just a few weeks ago. That stuff happens. That's where diversity comes in: only a few of them need to get better. Lesser efficient people can be assigned to lesser requiring roles, and more efficient people to more important ones. Everyone has their part to play. I have actual evidence to support that because I've run several events and a linkshell with people with a largely (as in absolute majority) social and casual background, and we've cleared pretty much everything at 75 (except AV and PW) and everything except Neo-Einherjar and Legion right now (and that's because we're not doing those atm, I'm running them with a different shell). And it was rough sometimes, because we were all underskilled and inexperienced. And we're still not great players. But with dedication and effort and a willingness to learn we were able to win things after a while. Sometimes it was easier, sometimes rougher, depending on our luck and attendance, but we got there.

And when we did it was an amazing feeling. Your first Proto-Ultima win, your first Dynamis Lord win, your first Ouryu win. Those moments we all worked for and we will all remember. That's the moments I enjoyed most in the game. That's the thing I want to have in the game again.

You want hardcore content options then to be fair make easy content combat path/options to balance it out. Giving one side better statistical gear isn't balanced. Letting them have a higher drop rate should be what its about. SE knows this that's why they made drop rates so horrible for VW content. What's your clever retort for this, it's just my imagination or something maybe?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I just want a clarification, because I can't figure out what your point is. Are you saying SE is deliberately evil for making VW drop rate so low? That they're trying to punish the playerbase or something? And how is being better giving us an edge in the drop rate anyway? I really don't get what you're trying to say at all here. Not that it's related to this anyway, because as I said above, VW is a really bad example. We don't want anything with a low drop rate and we never said that.

[Demon6324236]

So far as I can tell what has been asked for is a reward to come with having done something with higher difficulty. If this is the case your reward is a higher rate of items dropping. As someone said a few pages ago, its the same with Dynamis. If you do EP mobs, you get less AC, and less Forgottens, but its easier, if you fight DCs, its harder, but you get more drops. It balances out while giving everyone the same things still. I understand thats not exactly whats being asked for, but its a variant. I understand the want of items that take skill to get, my problem I have ever had with this type of content is the problem of gloating.

Be it you, or someone I have never met before, anyone at all gloating because they got an item in the game that you can not or will not is bad. I see Afterglow as the exact opposite to be honest, thats why I have no care about it. It has a look to it, but its effects are mainly worthless in the end, not to mention that with everything you have to put into it, I would laugh at you before I would envy you. Putting a shine on items, or making them look different, those kind of things I do not mind, they let you stand out, have a cool reward, but take away the ability for anyone to gloat about it because it is truly cosmetic.

People may say to Blacklist people who do it or whatever, but it doesn't solve the problem. People are assholes all throughout this community, and as such, I think we should give as few reasons to be one as we can. Ragmar said it himself that on Phoenix alot of good players are assholes, and I agree, alot are. My question is what happens when you give an asshole something no one else has? The answer is they use it to give them a reason to be more of an ass, normally by gloating.

Like I said, not everyone will do it, but its like if they gave unlimited macros, a few people would use it for automating things like skill ups, and those people who would, taint the group, and make it bad for anyone to get it. That is at least how I see it. So in my mind, higher drops = ok, glowy/standout/cool effects = ok, super powered gear that makes you stronger = not ok.

[Sarick]

I apologize in advance for the long post, I promise I'll keep my future posts shorter. I won't be repeating things I say in here again, in future I'll just reference them when I have to reply with the same things over and over again because some people just don't get it.

Wrong. This is not a solution. We say we want something. You say we can't get it and should take something entirely unrelated instead. That's not a solution. It doesn't cater to our request at all.

I stopped reading when you said Wrong. I already provided relevance and backing. Others who's posted also took the same stance as me. You can stonewall all you want it's not helping you, You and your buddy still haven't provided enough content in your post to hold any ground. I specifically pointed out flaws in your designs and aspirations yet you still push despite the evidence of both the community and the designers who communicate with the community have said.

Several people have told you that they don't like the original posters ideas/rant or your system. Stand up be proud that you tried then step back gracefully.

[FrankReynolds]

Giving the people who play the best stuff that makes them play better and excluding everyone else from it is a fundamentally flawed approach. It's like going "hey barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you can use an aluminum bat, but just you. No one else gets one. Oh and feel free to take all the roids you want. You are approved!"

Want recognition for being a great player? Play on an even playing field.

[Arcon]

I stopped reading when you said Wrong. I already provided relevance and backing.

No you didn't, ever.

Others who's posted also took the same stance as me. You can stonewall all you want it's not helping you, You and your buddy still haven't provided enough content in your post to hold any ground. I specifically pointed out flaws in your designs and aspirations yet you still push despite the evidence of both the community and the designers who communicate with the community have said.

No you didn't, ever. You never pointed out any flaws. You argue for the sake of arguing. You have no arguments and you don't want to give up. That's called stubbornness.

Several people have told you that they don't like the original posters ideas/rant or your system. Stand up be proud that you tried then step back gracefully.

I have no problem with people disagreeing. People telling me I'm wrong and insulting me without giving any reason is what I have a problem with. I explained to you in detail why this wouldn't hurt anyone. I know my last post was long, but don't let it scare you, it's in there. You on the other hand have only one argument, and that's accusing me of wanting to stand out.

Giving the people who play the best stuff that makes them play better and excluding everyone else from it is a fundamentally flawed approach.

No, it's the fundamental concept of any game ever. You get rewards for doing good things that help you with future content. It's also the very underlying concept of FFXI. That's like saying "Getting to 99 only makes content easier, so you're obviously a noob if you want to be at 99 to do it!", which is just as inappropriate. Let me ask you this, why do you get new gear? Why do you try to play good? Challenge should be there, but it's the player's job to tackle it somehow. You do this with strategy, real-time tactics, skill and - surprise - gear. That's part of everyday gameplay. SE tries to make challenging content, we try to figure out ways to beat them. And getting gear to be able to beat them is part of it. It describes all of FFXI and all of every other RPG.

It's like going "hey barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you can use an aluminum bat, but just you. No one else gets one. Oh and feel free to take all the roids you want. You are approved!"

It's more like "Hey Barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you get to play in the bigger league, with a better club, with better trainers, better equipment, and every one of your needs will be catered to!" which pretty much describes how it currently is. Only this suggestion is less selective, as I'd like for it to be accessible to everyone. Everyone should be given the chance, but they should have try to succeed, not given the win because they're there.

Want recognition for being a great player? Play on an even playing field.

No I don't want recognition. I want a reason to be good. I don't care if anyone at all knows about it.

[Ragmar]

Giving the people who play the best stuff that makes them play better and excluding everyone else from it is a fundamentally flawed approach. It's like going "hey barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you can use an aluminum bat, but just you. No one else gets one. Oh and feel free to take all the roids you want. You are approved!"

Want recognition for being a great player? Play on an even playing field.

Or it's like saying "Barry, you hit too many home runs so we've decided to remove the homerun from baseball to even the playing field. We're also going to level all salaries so that no one player makes more than another."

ESPN headline news: Baseball on strike!

Fact is players who make it to the majors do get better trainers, coaches and well everything than anyone else in baseball. You don't think a major league player gets better tools to perform his craft than the guy in AAA baseball? You do know MLB players use custom fitted bats right? Are they Aluminum? No cause everyone agree's they would break the game as well as the fear of ball off the bat speed for infielders. Bats require certain specs to be allowed but nearly any MLB player known for hitting is using a custom made bat designed for his specific swing. TBH I dont know if you could have used a worse sports analogy.

Also funny you mention roids lol, primal brew, VW weakening items, temp items anyone.

You also keep saying rewarding one person excludes content for someone else. This couldn't be further from the truth. Nothing anyone else has has ever excluded me from any content in game. In 8 years nothing anyone else had ever effected my ability to participate in content. My play time did. SE removed HNM. My skills did. I learned my jobs and became adept in how to use them.

[Ragmar]

"Play on an even playing field" is exactly what I want. I don't want anything except the player engaging in it to effect the outcome. You can't get any more "even" than that. You don't want even, you want biased content to be designed to what you believe is the highest level challenge you believe reasonable. You say "even" but what you are asking for is your skill/ability, or whatever else you want to call it, to be the highest level so that nobody can have something you cannot. The limiting factor in my suggestion is someones personal ability/skill, the limiting factor of yours is your percieved notion of what is appropriate.

[FrankReynolds]

No, it's the fundamental concept of any game ever. You get rewards for doing good things that help you with future content. It's also the very underlying concept of FFXI. That's like saying "Getting to 99 only makes content easier, so you're obviously a noob if you want to be at 99 to do it!", which is just as inappropriate. Let me ask you this, why do you get new gear? Why do you try to play good? Challenge should be there, but it's the player's job to tackle it somehow. You do this with strategy, real-time tactics, skill and - surprise - gear. That's part of everyday gameplay. SE tries to make challenging content, we try to figure out ways to beat them. And getting gear to be able to beat them is part of it. It describes all of FFXI and all of every other RPG.

And guess what happens when 3/4 of the people playing the game can't get the gear?

It's more like "Hey Barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you get to play in the bigger league, with a better club, with better trainers, better equipment, and every one of your needs will be catered to!" which pretty much describes how it currently is. Only this suggestion is less selective, as I'd like for it to be accessible to everyone. Everyone should be given the chance, but they should have try to succeed, not given the win because they're there.

That wasn't a good twist on my analogy. Barry doesn't get to take the trainers, money or his needs out onto the ball field. It's just him with the same regulation wooden bat that everyone else gets. It all sounds great from the outside looking in, but when he gets out on the field, its him and his team. They don't get to use pitching machines and whirlpool tubs on the field. No special gear.

You make it sound like getting empys, relics, nyzul, Legion, VW etc. gear is as easy as just showing up. I'm standing in Port Jeuno right now, and I can't find a single person with perfect gear here.

No I don't want recognition. I want a reason to be good. I don't care if anyone at all knows about it.

Why can't you just be good to be good? In the 30 years I've been playing video games, never once has it occurred to me that a game might be more fun my character had more powerful stuff and no one else could ever get it.

If you just want an award for an achievement, why not ranks? Glow effects? Titles? Different armor models with same stats? Free warps? Gil? Cruor? Extra storage slots? Better skill up rates? Increased drops? Anything? Are you honestly telling me that you can't come up with one single way to make yourself want to play this game beyond having a stronger piece of gear than the next guy? No part of you just wants to see your character progress? To cap all the jobs? To finish all the quests? To level a new craft or find a new way to beat an old event? There is a hole that absolutely cannot be filled without besting the next guy?

The type of people who gloat about gear would find something else to gloat about so not rewarding someone with better gear for harder content doesnt fix this. You would have to make sure everything with everyone was completely even or this is still possible. I hope no one really wants to start FFXI with every gear, quest, weapon, job, skill, mission, content ect completed.

You know damn well that isn't the case at all. People might joke like "Finish your windy rank 10 missions noob." but no one is ever gonna exclude you from a group / activity over that kind of thing. All they care about how fast your gonna be able to kill stuff.

"Play on an even playing field" is exactly what I want. I don't want anything except the player engaging in it to effect the outcome. You can't get any more "even" than that. You don't want even, you want biased content to be designed to what you believe is the highest level challenge you believe reasonable. You say "even" but what you are asking for is your skill/ability, or whatever else you want to call it, to be the highest level so that nobody can have something you cannot. The limiting factor in my suggestion is someones personal ability/skill, the limiting factor of yours is your percieved notion of what is appropriate.

You keep saying stuff like this as if your actually better at the game than everyone else. Your not. I'm not trying to regulate the game to noob levels. I'm trying to stop social misfits from griefing other players. I just want everyone to have access to the same gear, so that they have the opportunity to experience the game in the same way as you and I.

[Ragmar]

So far as I can tell what has been asked for is a reward to come with having done something with higher difficulty. If this is the case your reward is a higher rate of items dropping. As someone said a few pages ago, its the same with Dynamis. If you do EP mobs, you get less AC, and less Forgottens, but its easier, if you fight DCs, its harder, but you get more drops. It balances out while giving everyone the same things still. I understand thats not exactly whats being asked for, but its a variant. I understand the want of items that take skill to get, my problem I have ever had with this type of content is the problem of gloating.

Be it you, or someone I have never met before, anyone at all gloating because they got an item in the game that you can not or will not is bad. I see Afterglow as the exact opposite to be honest, thats why I have no care about it. It has a look to it, but its effects are mainly worthless in the end, not to mention that with everything you have to put into it, I would laugh at you before I would envy you. Putting a shine on items, or making them look different, those kind of things I do not mind, they let you stand out, have a cool reward, but take away the ability for anyone to gloat about it because it is truly cosmetic.

People may say to Blacklist people who do it or whatever, but it doesn't solve the problem. People are assholes all throughout this community, and as such, I think we should give as few reasons to be one as we can. Ragmar said it himself that on Phoenix alot of good players are assholes, and I agree, alot are. My question is what happens when you give an asshole something no one else has? The answer is they use it to give them a reason to be more of an ass, normally by gloating.

Like I said, not everyone will do it, but its like if they gave unlimited macros, a few people would use it for automating things like skill ups, and those people who would, taint the group, and make it bad for anyone to get it. That is at least how I see it. So in my mind, higher drops = ok, glowy/standout/cool effects = ok, super powered gear that makes you stronger = not ok.

The type of people who gloat about gear would find something else to gloat about so not rewarding someone with better gear for harder content doesnt fix this. You would have to make sure everything with everyone was completely even or this is still possible. I hope no one really wants to start FFXI with every gear, quest, weapon, job, skill, mission, content ect completed.

[Sarick]

No you didn't, ever.

Prove to me where I didn't

No you didn't, ever. You never pointed out any flaws. You argue for the sake of arguing. You have no arguments and you don't want to give up. That's called stubbornness.

Stubbornness, humm I plea the 5th, Dose that make someones argument any less valid. You've been selectively reading and responding to minor details and leaving out the areas of impact.

I have no problem with people disagreeing. People telling me I'm wrong and insulting me without giving any reason is what I have a problem with. I explained to you in detail why this wouldn't hurt anyone. I know my last post was long, but don't let it scare you, it's in there. You on the other hand have only one argument, and that's accusing me of wanting to stand out.

We've explained why it would hurt the game. ME?, if you read through the post I can't be singled out several people have said they disagree with the system you've been promoting dispute everything you've said to sway them. On these forms I saw a quote that said something like this. If a large group of people are saying one thing and your saying another maybe you're the oddball out.

Look at the Votes on the OP vs the ones on the 3rd post. There's your darn relevance its not just me on this side of the field I just speak louder.