FFXI fixed!

[Shoko]

I know of the hyper minority type of casual player that Sarick is referring too. They are the types of players that moan and complain about the general difficulty of events to get top gear, and yet will put in zero effort. They are also more than likely to be super reclusive and won't join LSes devoted to events. These same players won't put in the effort to get the most basic of high level equipment, even if it's for their main job.

They make up just about 1 or 2% of the general FFXI population over all, if not less.

[Sarick]

They make up just about 1 or 2% of the general FFXI population over all, if not less.

(I'm going to respond to this Arcon style in my own words.)

This is irrelevant those are made up numbers.

[Arcon]

But even for lol monsters like Kaggen and Akvan etc. I've been turned down for not having any empyreans or relics. So if I get turned down for "easy peasy" content for having good gear other than nyzul or empy/relic. Joe/Jane Pink will never, ever get to see the content your asking for.

Yup, been trying to say this the last (lost count) pages.

Only one crucial thing you're missing: that's content which isn't cleared with your linkshell but with random people. Random people will always want X of this and Y of that, to make sure their alliance performs as well as it can under the premise that you get a bunch of complete strangers under one leadership to kill a somewhat challenging NM.

However, it's very different when you do it with your own LS. I'm not talking about HNMLS, I'm talking about your everyday casual linkshell. Friends and family. People who will want to play with you regardless of gear. And yes, I cannot disagree that if absolutely everyone in that LS sucks then they will have problems completing that content. But if even one person is skilled in the bunch they can help the others out. They can educate them and show them what to do. And unless you found a group of ~20 completely ignorant and slow people, then you'll get better as a group. I know this because I've been through it more than once. Four times, to be precise. In my very first linkshell, in my second and longest lasting linkshell, in my Dynamis linkshell (which was a very good example of that) and in my current linkshell again.

And from the hundreds of random people I've played with and helped with and tried to teach about the game, even despite meeting some sad displays of lack of mental direction, I've still seen them move ahead and most of them got to participate in events, either with us or other people.

But not every casual will always work towards long-term goals such as a relic or empyrean.

So you complain that someone who doesn't want to invest time in easy to obtain items won't get hard to obtain items?

And I also plan to do a Vere, Twash, Mandau and Ragnarok all in due time but I want to take my time and have fun doing so instead of mindlessly grinding for a week or two for the empys and a few months for said relics.

So you rather mindlessly grind for months with some idle chatter along the way? Personally I don't see the benefit, but to each their own. I don't think this applies to the majority though. The casual people I know who do relics prefer to get them over with as soon as they can. The others are usually not bothered enough to even try seriously and just take it on a case-by-case basis. There's hardly any middle ground.

(Oh and you can still FC with a linkshell. We also did that for many people in our LS.)

Y#1 Personality. (Social compatibility)
#2 Skill or natural limits.
#3 Time limits and/or schedule
#4 Luck

Those factors already limit them, and they always will, in any game ever.

If you don't want lesser skilled players (and by skilled, I mean people who don't have an shell full of relic wielders at their disposal) from getting the gear, then you are debating the wrong person.

I never really argued your opinion and I don't intend to. Most of what you say is dead on. You just seem to think I want content like Legion v5, that absolutely no one except the absolutely most hardcore people are able to clear. Which is not the case. I want reasonably hard content. Content that is challenging yet not out of reach for anyone.

I'm not even sure what your arguing for anymore...? It sounds like you like the content already in the game and you don't want gear that normal players can't get.

I specifically mentioned both of these things, twice. I said I was happy with the game as it is, if it wasn't I wouldn't be playing. Neo-Einherjar and Legion are great additions. The only reason I'm not doing them with my casual shell is not that I don't wanna try it, but because people were less and less interested and I couldn't muster up the people to actually do the events. It was a simple manpower requirement we couldn't match.

Which is why, in my previous post, I said that I'd approve of a scaling mechanism. Something that scales in difficulty with the number of people you bring. That would definitely bring my LS up to that content as well. Sadly though, I don't believe SE can pull that off with any reasonable result.

I'm not sure why any of this comes as a shock to you, this is nothing new. I said all of that in previous posts.

Which is the opposite of what the op is asking for. If all you want is less RNG based crap, just say it, because that is not what the OP wants. He is trying to play innocent, but his motivation is to draw a firm line between who he sees as entitled and the unworthy.

I also said that I don't know the OP or his motivations, and I'm not agreeing with him, I just found his proposal interesting. And I didn't (and still don't) read what you do into his posts. Sure, some of his posts seem a bit overly aggressive, but I'm willing to attribute that to being provoked by mindlessly insulting replies of certain ignorant parties on the other end of the spectrum.

Bear in mind, that the gear doesn't just have to be "Good enough" to get by, it has to be impressive enough to get an ally to accept you.

As I said above, that's the VW mentality. Shout groups of complete strangers. They don't know you, so they don't know how you perform. Having a relic or empyrean does not guarantee you performing well, but it does indicate that you're invested in your job which increases the likelihood that you're a better player. That's why they're asking for those things. This does not apply to a social linkshell, and I do believe that that content should be able to be cleared by social players with practice and patience.

Since you call yourself a Joe Pink I find it a bid odd that you'd defend this at all.

I can tell you why. Because she was in my previous linkshell and is in my current one and she can confirm what I said. Casual people are able to clear hard content if they don't approach it alone. I told you we had almost exclusively casual players (we didn't have any relic players until the end of the 75 era, when one of us got it). Yet we cleared almost everything level 75 had to offer (except HNM, which we didn't even attempt due to competition and spawn hours), with the aforementioned casuals. We did all Dynamis zones, killed everything in sea (except AV) and sky, every ZNM (except PW), Limbus all the time and had several smaller statics for Assaults, Nyzul and Salvage runs. And I know of plenty other linkshells who did similar things.

OH, I see your Arcons girl, buddy, mule. It explains everything.

You must be really desperate to grasp at straws like that. You'd take any excuse to invalidate our opinions, wouldn't you? Not that it would invalidate them if she was any of that, but I know you'd like to think so. Sadly, I can't find an equally convenient explanation for your lack of logical comprehension.

All she's done is give you an example of exactly what I meant. But it seems you don't deal well with criticism.

[Sarick]

I can tell you why. Because she was in my previous linkshell and is in my current one and she can confirm what I said.

All she's done is give you an example of exactly what I meant. But it seems you don't deal well with criticism.

I'm not an idiot, she just started posting recently, In your LS and same nation area. As for not dealing with criticism you speak from experience. I used to have some respect for you Arcon but after this topic you threw all that out the window.

Nothing that's being ask on this said of the field is going to topple your grand agenda. You sir can't compromise even the slightest this means you have an issue. Look at all my post I'm up to 88% compatible with your agenda that's not a low F'n number. That leaves a mere 12% we're disagreeing with.

#1 The disagreement is if it's in Jimmy Leet pool it should also be in Joe Pink pool.

#2 If you want special gear and it can't be in the Joe Pink pool then it should be limited to a glow like effect.

#3 Higher rewards for more challenging content meaning that advanced mode has higher drop rate of the same items with inclusion of a 100% drop that's used for high ranking emp upgrades..

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you are purely in a green state and trying to be selfish. Seeing as you had to call on friends or alts to defend your side is just pathetic. Everyone who's been against the original poster has made enough arguments to confirm the negatives and the over all agenda behind the request. His attitude is bad his arguments aren't good and he's also unwilling to compromise just like you. Two peas in a pot.

So you are by definition arguing to make things not equal in a sense that only a minority can get them. I understand completely that you want stuff others can't get that make you feel special, you're only human. Please understand this selfish greed is a powerful hard to control human nature to overcome.

[Arcon]

I'm not an idiot, she just started posting recently, In your LS and same nation area. As for not dealing with criticism you speak from experience. I used to have some respect for you Arcon but after this topic you threw all that out the window.

Her posting made you lose respect for me? Guess that makes sense for you.

Nothing that's being ask on this said of the field is going to topple your grand agenda. You sir can't compromise even the slightest this means you have an issue. Look at all my post I'm up to 88% compatible with your agenda that's not a low F'n number. That leaves a mere 12% we're disagreeing with.

Stop with the useless numbers. And don't use the excuse that the other side is also using them, it wasn't me, so don't pull this one on me. I'm not compromising because no compromise is offered. And I assume that no comprise is offered because you still don't understand what I want. Every post again, over and over, you keep repeating some stuff that I never said or asked for and when I try to tell you why you completely ignore it and just repeat the same garbage again.

#1 The disagreement is if it's in Jimmy Leet pool it should also be in Joe Pink pool.

If he works for it, sure.

#2 If you want special gear and it can't be in the Joe Pink pool then it should be limited to a glow like effect.

It should be in everyone's pool. And I already said that I don't particularly mind that either, but that that's not a solution, because it does not address our problem. Trophy items are just for showing off, and I don't care for that (despite what you like to proclaim).

#3 Higher rewards for more challenging content meaning that advanced mode has higher drop rate of the same items with inclusion of a 100% drop that's used for high ranking emp upgrades..

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. What do empyrean weapons have to do with this? Or are you saying that any challenging mob should also drop empyrean upgrade items? Seems a bit groundless, but whatever. I already explained that obtaining something faster is no reward at all. It does not introduce nor require skill.

As for the current system, since that was brought up earlier, no matter how skilled you are, you won't be able to kill Orthrus much faster than the next guy who just uses a weapon skill on a timer.

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you are purely in a green state and trying to be selfish. Seeing as you had to call on friends or alts to defend your side is just pathetic. Everyone who's been against the original poster has made enough arguments to confirm the negatives and the over all agenda behind the request. His attitude is bad his arguments aren't good and he's also unwilling to compromise just like you. Two peas in a pot.

I never called on anyone to do anything, because I didn't need to. Everything I said was spot on and even until now you've done nothing at all to disprove my arguments against you or your agenda. What's pathetic is that you're resorting to calling me a fraud by attacking my credibility (with no evidence) instead of my arguments. That is an indication that you've run out of things to say.

So you are by definition arguing to make things not equal in a sense that only a minority can get them. I understand completely that you want stuff others can't get that make you feel special, you're only human. Please understand this selfish greed is a powerful hard to control human nature to overcome.

You understand nothing. You have the comprehension capacity of a three year old. You don't even know how to argue properly. You throw around words that make you sound smart with no context and inappropriate usage just for the sake of sounding educated. Do you feel that that will carry more weight than sound arguments themselves? In this paragraph alone you have demonstrated that you have no idea what "by definition" means, what "equality" is and that you didn't grasp a thing of what I've been trying to convey. I specifically stated repeatedly that I do not want to exclude anyone and that everyone should be able to access and the content and get a chance to win it. I said that the content should not require best of gear but strategy and tactics instead. I said that it should scale with the number of members, so people can go with their friends if they can't find a full alliance or don't feel like they'll be able to join an endgame LS for this purpose. You addressed none of these things. You just spout groundless statements about how it is unjust and how I'm just being elitist and selfish, with no reasons, no explanation and no evidence. And it's getting really old.

[Sarick]

Her posting made you lose respect for me? Guess that makes sense for you.

No, I think you missed something as usual.

Stop with the useless numbers.

Those numbers represent how close we are in agreement. This is something that I explained and they do represent something relevant to the topic. It shows how close our opinions are on the topic. Its a point by point match system that separates key elements of an argument. One reason someone wouldn't understand this would be because everything is seen in a binary perspective. A binary perspective means there is no percentage it's like a data bit on or off with no in between. That's what those numbers represented.

If he works for it, sure.

Again you miss the point and assume that Joe pink can compete on that level. I explained this already that everyone has a natural limit to skill. Under my setup where its available in all pools Joe Pink could WORK FOR IT. Under the setup where only advance players get it Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell.

It should be in everyone's pool. And I already said that I don't particularly mind that either, but that that's not a solution, because it does not address our problem. Trophy items are just for showing off, and I don't care for that (despite what you like to proclaim).

Then why didn't you just say that "It should be in everyone's pool?" This single statement is the compromise. Show me where you said this exact sentence in an old post edited before today? I think I can read through my previous post where I pointed this out and you gave it the finger when you said "This is not enough." If you can find that then I'll apologize if not then hopefully you can see the fault isn't on my end.

As always I make an honest attempt to bring ideas to the table. I don't blindly disagree. I try and find solutions or compromises. When one side won't budge for reasons that seem dubious I only dig the trench deeper and prep the ammo.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. What do empyrean weapons have to do with this? Or are you saying that any challenging mob should also drop empyrean upgrade items? Seems a bit groundless, but whatever. I already explained that obtaining something faster is no reward at all. It does not introduce nor require skill.

This is where you missed something, the increased challenge mode would offer this. Meaning the mob is tougher. I really don't see how you could misinterpret this Frank explained it why back when he introduced Joe Pink with the dynamis example.

If you're able to make $100,000 a year vs someone who can make $20,000 a year at a different job with vastly different skill sets, how is this not rewarding? The person making 20,000 is stuck at a lower standard of living because their limits. You on the other hand make five times more and can upgrade to a higher standard of living. Maybe you're a lawyer who enjoys his job and they're a school teacher who enjoys teaching young children. Both can be rewarding at their own level but one is at a higher income bracket.

As for the current system, since that was brought up earlier, no matter how skilled you are, you won't be able to kill Orthrus much faster than the next guy who just uses a weapon skill on a timer.

I never said anything about speed killing. Oh, you must mean that leet gear won't effect the kill speed. Irrelevant it's about both sides getting the items in their pools at a different rate from the tiered enemy. A solution was to give a useful upgrade items that dropped 100% for the added difficulty. Also speaking of speed killing, If the enemy is higher challenge it won't be as easy to take down so that unqualifies the last sentence in the above statement you made.

I never called on anyone to do anything, because I didn't need to. Everything I said was spot on and even until now you've done nothing at all to disprove my arguments against you or your agenda. What's pathetic is that you're resorting to calling me a fraud by attacking my credibility (with no evidence) instead of my arguments.

No evidence? Does god exist? If you say yes or no and I say "Prove it" I doubt you'll convince me either direction if I want to disagree just to disagree. I think this is known as Occam's razor because it shifts the burden of proof. I'm sure you don't need to hit the link.

You understand nothing. You have the comprehension capacity of a three year old. You don't even know how to argue properly. You throw around words that make you sound smart with no context and inappropriate usage just for the sake of sounding educated.

What are you talking about? I don't use educated words. Comprehension? What, about arguing makes you think there is only one side with right or wrong ways? I'm sure if you walk out on the street and some guy wants to beat your head into the ground or something of that nature you'll say "wait I need to take off my glasses first." There isn't much difference when people are truly arguing about something. Stuff is said that can sound mean or intimidating.

I'm sure you're aware of that arguing has this effect because the above quote proves you're no saint. As for the words I use this is the way I talk normally it isn't like I'm looking for them in a dictionary this is what pops in my head. I never said I was smart so why would you bring that up? Let me assume it's just your imagination playing tricks on you.

I specifically stated repeatedly that I do not want to exclude anyone and that everyone should be able to access and the content and get a chance to win it.

Then why have you been arguing with me this whole time? Did you feel the need to defend yourself on something you agreed with? I wouldn't pose these types of questions or make assumptions if I didn't see reason for them.

You addressed none of these things. You just spout groundless statements about how it is unjust and how I'm just being elitist and selfish, with no reasons, no explanation and no evidence. And it's getting really old.

You've put nothing on the table since we've started arguing. Nothing, to address the issues only to say that's not enough or I want more? What do you expect here obedience or straight up compliance? The only thing you've done is pushed the fact that you don't like the current system, suggestions or my way of saying how I feel about the them. I don't dismiss my methods of arguing but, I'm confident enough to admit their shortcomings. Seriously, you've offered nothing to help solve the issues you've been arguing about. The only motivation I've seen from you is constant retaliative retorts equal to my methods. So please save me from the innocent act as it's also getting really old.

In conclusion: Since we've come to an agreement that Joe Pink can get it in his reduced drop rate leet item in the easy pool. I don't see why you'd continue arguing with me at this point unless, you say something constrictive, irrelevant or contradictive to the agreement. Also, if you like arguing with me continue pushing my buttons. I love defending something I feel strongly about when it comes to balance.

[Arcon]

Again you miss the point and assume that Joe pink can compete on that level. I explained this already that everyone has a natural limit to skill. Under my setup where its available in all pools Joe Pink could WORK FOR IT. Under the setup where only advance players get it Joe Pink doesn't have a chance in hell.

Again you miss the point that it is not about competition. That's already why you Olympic games comparison failed. Just because someone gets gold here does not mean that it precludes others from getting it as well. About the pool thing..

Then why didn't you just say that "It should be in everyone's pool?" This single statement is the compromise. Show me where you said this exact sentence in an old post edited before today? I think I can read through my previous post where I pointed this out and you gave it the finger when you said "This is not enough." If you can find that then I'll apologize if not then hopefully you can see the fault isn't on my end.

You misunderstood what I meant, although I admit my wording was ambiguous. I forgot we were talking about the OP's idea and was talking about skill requirements in general. What I meant was that the elite pool should also be accessible to casual players, not that every reward should drop off every difficulty level. As in, every casual should be able to work up to that and be able to clear it with practice and patience.

What do you mean by natural skill limit? Are you saying some people are so bad that they can't improve to a point that they'd be useful to a group? If that's true I've yet to meet someone like that and I've met a lot of people. Unless, of course, you're talking about someone with a mental disability, but if you think the game should be designed around them I'm done arguing with you.

This is where you missed something, the increased challenge mode would offer this. Meaning the mob is tougher. I really don't see how you could misinterpret this Frank explained it why back when he introduced Joe Pink with the dynamis example.

And even back then I said why that was a bad example. First of all, whether I get a relic in two or four months makes no difference to me. I'm not in a rush. I play this game casually, it's a pastime. Secondly, it does not even require any skills at all, because you can just make the money from other sources that require less skill and give more money (like FC parties, for example). I never farmed Dyna at all and I have a relic too, and I got it faster than most Dynamis farmers.

If you're able to make $100,000 a year vs someone who can make $20,000 a year at a different job with vastly different skill sets, how is this not rewarding?

Because money is not what I'm looking for. It's compensation for my time and effort, not a reward. I don't look forward to do a job for the money, I do it begrudgingly waiting to get paid. That's the first reason why it doesn't compare to this situation.

The second is that it's not about "more" or "less" rewarding, but about the kind of reward. I never argued that it isn't "more" rewarding, but I told you specifically that that wasn't what I was looking for. It's about quality over quantity. Skill should be rewarded in an unique way, not just more of the same. Why doesn't every event just reward us moat carps, more or less depending on the difficulty. And we could rank items and make them redeemable with a certain number of carps. That's essentially what you're suggesting.

No evidence? Does god exist? If you say yes or no and I say "Prove it" I doubt you'll convince me either direction if I want to disagree just to disagree. I think this is known as Occam's razor because it shifts the burden of proof. I'm sure you don't need to hit the link.

That's exactly why you shouldn't be making these kinds of accusations. Pointless throwing around claims that you can't back up at all.

Then why have you been arguing with me this whole time? Did you feel the need to defend yourself on something you agreed with? I wouldn't pose these types of questions or make assumptions if I didn't see reason for them.

We don't agree, and I don't think you understood what I meant. You're suggesting:
Tier 1: 10% drop rate of desired item (noobs go here)
Tier 2: 50% drop rate of desired item (made for average people)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of desired item (made for the elitist scum)

What I'm suggesting is the following:
Tier 1: 100% drop rate of LQ item (requires attendance)
Tier 2: 100% drop rate of NQ item (requires patience and strategy)
Tier 3: 100% drop rate of HQ item (requires preparation, coordination and effort)

The reason why you assume my idea is bad is because you think some people will never be able to complete tier 3. Why do you say that? Have you seen the T3 already, even though it's just in my head so far? How can you qualify that statement without knowing the actual difficulty?

I already told why one bad player is no reason this wouldn't work: because the group can even it out. I already said it should not require perfect gear. I also said it should not be unforgiving (like Legion currently is because of the time limit). No one mistake should kill the run. It should be something that's accessible and possible to beat even with average players if they play well. Sure, they wouldn't be able to clear it every time, but I see no issue with that (and neither do you, because that's precisely your argument).

When I say it should reward skill you jumped at the conclusion that it should be absolutely impossible to beat if you don't do everything perfectly, all the time. That was an assumption on your part. I told you what seems like a million times by now that I don't want to exclude anyone from getting a shot at the win. Only that it should require effort. It's ok to completely wipe the first ten attempts. Make smaller rewards along the way. Like Legion when clearing the first wave. That way a group can watch their own progress as they build their skills and gain practice in that event. That is how people learn to play better, and it's the only way.

A constant stream of mediocre content will not produce skilled players, no matter their potential.

You've put nothing on the table since we've started arguing. Nothing, to address the issues only to say that's not enough or I want more? What do you expect here obedience or straight up compliance? The only thing you've done is pushed the fact that you don't like the current system, suggestions or my way of saying how I feel about the them.

Wrong. Again. I told you many times before, in this very thread, that I do like the current system. I am happy with the way the game is right now. Unlike you, it would seem, because currently it's already the way I suggested it, only without the different difficulty levels. Instead there's content exclusively catered to high-level players. What I'm basically suggesting is to introduce lower difficulty Legion tiers which people could use to gain skill and experience in that particular event, because right now it's designed to exclude untrained/inexperienced players. And that's not because it's insanely difficult, but because it's expensive and unforgiving, which means people don't get the chance to just go in and get experience with it, they don't get to improve with practice at all. They either have a high-level group to tackle the content with already or they don't. That's what this suggestion would remedy.

[vienne]

I'm not an idiot, she just started posting recently, In your LS and same nation area. As for not dealing with criticism you speak from experience. I used to have some respect for you Arcon but after this topic you threw all that out the window.

This is the last thing I'm posting in this thread and please if any mod reads this, just lock it. We'll agree to disagree. some people want challenging content others want to turn this game into cuddlebearland where everyone gets the same lollypop.
But please you're being paranoid and you may apologise how much you want you're being very insulting towards me and towards arcon saying that he asks people to post for him. If it makes you feel any better we had a good laugh in the ls with your accusation of me being Arc's mule. I hope you'll remember me next time when I post in a thread and he does too and we have a different opinion.

[Shoko]

(I'm going to respond to this Arcon style in my own words.)

This is irrelevant those are made up numbers.

Can say it's made up numbers all you want, but the general population of players have at least one or two friends and does stuff with them, at the very least.

[Sarick]

Can say it's made up numbers all you want, but the general population of players have at least one or two friends and does stuff with them, at the very least.

You could've just said minority instead of giving a fake number and I wouldn't have disagreed.

The facts are they made statements in previous post that said they want this content available to everyone. If It's not in Joe Pinks pool then it'll only be in Jimmy leets pool. This by design is constrictive and represents two separate minority groups.

Both Jimmy Leet and Joe Pink are minorities. You can't balance things to be fair for everyone if one side gets special statistically superior equipment that the other can't possibly get.

Jimmy leet (Minority)

Jack Normal (Majority) << This guy is the one that the game should be designed around.

Joe Pink (Minority)

I hope you see what I'm trying to imply here. If you don't get it I'll explain in a later post.