FFXI fixed!

[FrankReynolds]

Giving the people who play the best stuff that makes them play better and excluding everyone else from it is a fundamentally flawed approach. It's like going "hey barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you can use an aluminum bat, but just you. No one else gets one. Oh and feel free to take all the roids you want. You are approved!"

Want recognition for being a great player? Play on an even playing field.

[Arcon]

I stopped reading when you said Wrong. I already provided relevance and backing.

No you didn't, ever.

Others who's posted also took the same stance as me. You can stonewall all you want it's not helping you, You and your buddy still haven't provided enough content in your post to hold any ground. I specifically pointed out flaws in your designs and aspirations yet you still push despite the evidence of both the community and the designers who communicate with the community have said.

No you didn't, ever. You never pointed out any flaws. You argue for the sake of arguing. You have no arguments and you don't want to give up. That's called stubbornness.

Several people have told you that they don't like the original posters ideas/rant or your system. Stand up be proud that you tried then step back gracefully.

I have no problem with people disagreeing. People telling me I'm wrong and insulting me without giving any reason is what I have a problem with. I explained to you in detail why this wouldn't hurt anyone. I know my last post was long, but don't let it scare you, it's in there. You on the other hand have only one argument, and that's accusing me of wanting to stand out.

Giving the people who play the best stuff that makes them play better and excluding everyone else from it is a fundamentally flawed approach.

No, it's the fundamental concept of any game ever. You get rewards for doing good things that help you with future content. It's also the very underlying concept of FFXI. That's like saying "Getting to 99 only makes content easier, so you're obviously a noob if you want to be at 99 to do it!", which is just as inappropriate. Let me ask you this, why do you get new gear? Why do you try to play good? Challenge should be there, but it's the player's job to tackle it somehow. You do this with strategy, real-time tactics, skill and - surprise - gear. That's part of everyday gameplay. SE tries to make challenging content, we try to figure out ways to beat them. And getting gear to be able to beat them is part of it. It describes all of FFXI and all of every other RPG.

It's like going "hey barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you can use an aluminum bat, but just you. No one else gets one. Oh and feel free to take all the roids you want. You are approved!"

It's more like "Hey Barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you get to play in the bigger league, with a better club, with better trainers, better equipment, and every one of your needs will be catered to!" which pretty much describes how it currently is. Only this suggestion is less selective, as I'd like for it to be accessible to everyone. Everyone should be given the chance, but they should have try to succeed, not given the win because they're there.

Want recognition for being a great player? Play on an even playing field.

No I don't want recognition. I want a reason to be good. I don't care if anyone at all knows about it.

[FrankReynolds]

No, it's the fundamental concept of any game ever. You get rewards for doing good things that help you with future content. It's also the very underlying concept of FFXI. That's like saying "Getting to 99 only makes content easier, so you're obviously a noob if you want to be at 99 to do it!", which is just as inappropriate. Let me ask you this, why do you get new gear? Why do you try to play good? Challenge should be there, but it's the player's job to tackle it somehow. You do this with strategy, real-time tactics, skill and - surprise - gear. That's part of everyday gameplay. SE tries to make challenging content, we try to figure out ways to beat them. And getting gear to be able to beat them is part of it. It describes all of FFXI and all of every other RPG.

And guess what happens when 3/4 of the people playing the game can't get the gear?

It's more like "Hey Barry, you hit the most home runs! Congratulations! Next year you get to play in the bigger league, with a better club, with better trainers, better equipment, and every one of your needs will be catered to!" which pretty much describes how it currently is. Only this suggestion is less selective, as I'd like for it to be accessible to everyone. Everyone should be given the chance, but they should have try to succeed, not given the win because they're there.

That wasn't a good twist on my analogy. Barry doesn't get to take the trainers, money or his needs out onto the ball field. It's just him with the same regulation wooden bat that everyone else gets. It all sounds great from the outside looking in, but when he gets out on the field, its him and his team. They don't get to use pitching machines and whirlpool tubs on the field. No special gear.

You make it sound like getting empys, relics, nyzul, Legion, VW etc. gear is as easy as just showing up. I'm standing in Port Jeuno right now, and I can't find a single person with perfect gear here.

No I don't want recognition. I want a reason to be good. I don't care if anyone at all knows about it.

Why can't you just be good to be good? In the 30 years I've been playing video games, never once has it occurred to me that a game might be more fun my character had more powerful stuff and no one else could ever get it.

If you just want an award for an achievement, why not ranks? Glow effects? Titles? Different armor models with same stats? Free warps? Gil? Cruor? Extra storage slots? Better skill up rates? Increased drops? Anything? Are you honestly telling me that you can't come up with one single way to make yourself want to play this game beyond having a stronger piece of gear than the next guy? No part of you just wants to see your character progress? To cap all the jobs? To finish all the quests? To level a new craft or find a new way to beat an old event? There is a hole that absolutely cannot be filled without besting the next guy?

The type of people who gloat about gear would find something else to gloat about so not rewarding someone with better gear for harder content doesnt fix this. You would have to make sure everything with everyone was completely even or this is still possible. I hope no one really wants to start FFXI with every gear, quest, weapon, job, skill, mission, content ect completed.

You know damn well that isn't the case at all. People might joke like "Finish your windy rank 10 missions noob." but no one is ever gonna exclude you from a group / activity over that kind of thing. All they care about how fast your gonna be able to kill stuff.

"Play on an even playing field" is exactly what I want. I don't want anything except the player engaging in it to effect the outcome. You can't get any more "even" than that. You don't want even, you want biased content to be designed to what you believe is the highest level challenge you believe reasonable. You say "even" but what you are asking for is your skill/ability, or whatever else you want to call it, to be the highest level so that nobody can have something you cannot. The limiting factor in my suggestion is someones personal ability/skill, the limiting factor of yours is your percieved notion of what is appropriate.

You keep saying stuff like this as if your actually better at the game than everyone else. Your not. I'm not trying to regulate the game to noob levels. I'm trying to stop social misfits from griefing other players. I just want everyone to have access to the same gear, so that they have the opportunity to experience the game in the same way as you and I.

[Ragmar]

And guess what happens when 3/4 of the people playing the game can't get the gear?

You know damn well that isn't the case at all. People might joke like "Finish your windy rank 10 missions noob." but no one is ever gonna exclude you from a group / activity over that kind of thing. All they care about how fast your gonna be able to kill stuff.

You keep saying stuff like this as if your actually better at the game than everyone else. Your not. I'm not trying to regulate the game to noob levels. I'm trying to stop social misfits from griefing other players. I just want everyone to have access to the same gear, so that they have the opportunity to experience the game in the same way as you and I.

Random number like 3/4ths are fun. I believe people would exclude others for lack of quests just as much as they do for lack of gear. I've had plenty of noobish geared players in my VW runs that performed their proc function. It's when people get bad reps as being noobs for not having relevant skills or knowledge of the content they are trying to participate in that usually gets them excluded. I've never once claimed to be better than everyone else and you wouldnt have a clue if I was or not, none.

You don't understand that if you decide to limit content to your acceptable standards there will still be others who feel the bar is still set to high. To do what you are suggesting means the bar can be no higher than the ability of the absolute least skilled player in the game. I have seen people fail to kill a mob using multiple brews. In effect you would have to allow full time brews in all zones all the time and eliminate "K.O." in game. This is the only way EVERYONE can be guarenteed the same success rate.

I'd love to see those who grief others eliminated but until SE takes a harder stance on this it's simply not going to happen. I reported a guy for /yell "I just got (random number I forgot) Ni**er shells." The GM did nothing, the player remained in PJ laughing about their "play on words about T. Whiteshells." I'd love to see these types of people removed but again thats on SE.

Until SE simply does not allow certain accounts access to content everyone who plays does in fact have access to all content/gear. Access to, and guarenteed success in content are two very different things. When my LS was building empys we ran accross a lot of other LS's who had 10~ relics between them, we had 1. Their WAR had an armada hauberk, ours had an adaman hauberk. We would watch them fail and struggle with mobs we killed much easier. Gear does not determine outcome, at best it allows more room for error.

I would love for everyone to experience the game equally, this is exactly what my post is asking for. I want people to be able to enjoy all content on their own terms of difficulty. The part you disagree with is where I suggest harder content should have better rewards. SE absolutely needs to keep making content that is AVAILABLE to everyone. What I don't want is for the difficulty level of all content to be designed only for those who struggle with things others might find easy or for SE to predetermine 100% success for anyone.

P.S. There is always someone who will think the content is too hard unless its 100% win/drop rate.

[Arcon]

And guess what happens when 3/4 of the people playing the game can't get the gear?

I won't because it's irrelevant. That's a completely made up number with zero relevance to this topic.

You make it sound like getting empys, relics, nyzul, Legion, VW etc. gear is as easy as just showing up. I'm standing in Port Jeuno right now, and I can't find a single person with perfect gear here.

Relics and VW gear are easy, empyreans generally aren't, neither is Nyzul. None of that is particularly relevant because I never complained with the status quo. I even said specifically that I'm happy right now. Neo-Einherjar and Legion are pretty much what I had in mind with what I said, only maybe slightly more forgiving and not catered to a full alliance. Possibly even something that scales with numbers, although I'm sure SE would botch that.

Why can't you just be good to be good? In the 30 years I've been playing video games, never once has it occurred to me that a game might be more fun my character had more powerful stuff and no one else could ever get it.

I do that. I perform the best I can, always. It would just be nice to actually be rewarded for it. And the bolded part is wrong. See any one of my fifty previous posts for an explanation.

If you just want an award for an achievement, why not ranks? Glow effects? Titles? Different armor models with same stats? Free warps? Gil? Cruor? Extra storage slots? Better skill up rates? Increased drops? Anything? Are you honestly telling me that you can't come up with one single way to make yourself want to play this game beyond having a stronger piece of gear than the next guy? No part of you just wants to see your character progress? To cap all the jobs? To finish all the quests? To level a new craft or find a new way to beat an old event? There is a hole that absolutely cannot be filled without besting the next guy?

The bolded part is wrong, again. And I agree with the rest. I play for achievement, I already do everything what you say. I play to progress my character. I do things that don't give me anything other than the satisfaction of having done them. As I said before, it would simply be nice to actually be rewarded something useful for your efforts. Not everyone shares my mentality and does shit for the hell of it, and despite what you may think I'm very sure that applies to a lot of people because I already know many people this applies to personally. Everyone wants a reward, and speed is rarely an issue. The only difference to now is that skill does not play a big role in many of the events. If there were no rewards at all, no one would be playing, not even you.

[vienne]

I'll follow OP and Arcon in this thread, think I can call myself *cough* joe pink but I would like to see a bit more challenge added to the game. I need a reason to keep playing this game, i dont play for gear persé (although yes at some point I would like to get some shinies too but I'm a patient person, not all good things come over night) I prefer playing with friends in challenging content that asks for concentration and teamwork and yes challenging hard content should have better rewards then a grindfest. Also personally, I think the excuse that "if you want to make this game harder dont get buffs/atma/etc." is a very week argument. People opposing the idea of more challenge should also stop acting like they talk for the whole community cause you dont.

[Komori]

I'll follow OP and Arcon in this thread, think I can call myself *cough* joe pink but I would like to see a bit more challenge added to the game. I need a reason to keep playing this game, i dont play for gear persé (although yes at some point I would like to get some shinies too but I'm a patient person, not all good things come over night) I prefer playing with friends in challenging content that asks for concentration and teamwork and yes challenging hard content should have better rewards then a grindfest. Also personally, I think the excuse that "if you want to make this game harder dont get buffs/atma/etc." is a very week argument. People opposing the idea of more challenge should also stop acting like they talk for the whole community cause you dont.

But you do realize that as a Joe Pink they would never allow you to come along? This hard content would need the most excellent of gear since there would be no atmas or temps to make up for power. That's kind of the argument the people are trying to make, you would need all of the +2s and Neo Nyzul Gear and all of that other really good stuff that overpowers people before you could come close to tagging along.

[Arcon]

But you do realize that as a Joe Pink they would never allow you to come along? This hard content would need the most excellent of gear since there would be no atmas or temps to make up for power. That's kind of the argument the people are trying to make, you would need all of the +2s and Neo Nyzul Gear and all of that other really good stuff that overpowers people before you could come close to tagging along.

Only I already explained (twice) why that's not the case. AF3+1 gear isn't far behind AF3+2 gear, and AF3+2 gear is amazing. Sure, Nyzul gear is situationally better but it's not going to make a difference in the outcome of a fight. If you have AF3+2 gear you're well-geared. Even all the new gear they released in the year after is just icing on the cake, but a difference in quality. Everything I can do with my Nyzul gear I can do without too. It's not going to make or break a fight.

And there are plenty of people who would let them come along. There is such a thing as social event linkshells, in fact most would fall under that category. Mine is one of them and my previous one was too, and I know several others just on Leviathan. Linkshells that consist largely of casual players and tackle all kinds of content together, to all improve and get better at it, which is my entire view of what an MMORPG should be like. Try content with your friends to get better at it, eventually beat it and reap the rewards.

[FrankReynolds]

Random number like 3/4ths are fun.

I won't because it's irrelevant. That's a completely made up number with zero relevance to this topic.

It's not random and it's not irrelevant. It is a lowball estimate as to how many people would be excluded from the drops your requesting. In reality, something harder than what is currently available (because nothing seems rewarding right now apparently) would probably be out of the question for more players than that. Think really hard. How are they goiing to design something that's hard enough to make you feel accomplished, but easy enough that even 1/4 of the rest of the players can finish it too? They can't. The number is just to illustrate the size of the problem. It's not meant to be an exact count of the number of people who can't do imaginary things. I think it's obvious to everyone that I wasn't claiming to have measured the skill level of every player in the game. Your just splitting hairs here.

I look around PJ and I don't even see 1/4 of people wearing all of the best drops from current events, and you want something that even less people can get.

I do that. I perform the best I can, always. It would just be nice to actually be rewarded for it. And the bolded part is wrong. See any one of my fifty previous posts for an explanation.

It's not wrong. This thread is about getting gear that lesser skilled players cannot get. It's not about getting it faster than lesser skilled players. If you don't want lesser skilled players (and by skilled, I mean people who don't have an shell full of relic wielders at their disposal) from getting the gear, then you are debating the wrong person.

The bolded part is wrong, again. And I agree with the rest. I play for achievement, I already do everything what you say. I play to progress my character. I do things that don't give me anything other than the satisfaction of having done them. As I said before, it would simply be nice to actually be rewarded something useful for your efforts. Not everyone shares my mentality and does shit for the hell of it, and despite what you may think I'm very sure that applies to a lot of people because I already know many people this applies to personally. Everyone wants a reward, and speed is rarely an issue. The only difference to now is that skill does not play a big role in many of the events. If there were no rewards at all, no one would be playing, not even you.

I'm not even sure what your arguing for anymore...? It sounds like you like the content already in the game and you don't want gear that normal players can't get. Which is the opposite of what the op is asking for. If all you want is less RNG based crap, just say it, because that is not what the OP wants. He is trying to play innocent, but his motivation is to draw a firm line between who he sees as entitled and the unworthy.

I'm fine with there being more skill involved, but the rewards should be attainable by everyone if they are going to affect performance. You keep repeating that AF+2 is great, but I'm sure that you realize that with every new event they come out with, it gets less and less great in comparison right? How many iterations of new gear before AF3+2 is irrelevant? Bear in mind, that the gear doesn't just have to be "Good enough" to get by, it has to be impressive enough to get an ally to accept you.

Currently, I get crap on every VW run I do because my LOL SAM has a TP Bonus +100 GK and not a masa. I parse everything. Even when I die a lot, I'm never anywhere near the bottom of the parse. A lot of the time I'm at the top. That is the mentality that I want to get away from. The mentality that someone is gimp because "look at their gear, it's gimpy". Gear is not a good way to measure skill, and I don't want it to be used as such. No matter how well they design an event, there will always be a loophole that allows gimps to get the gear. Why not look for a less disruptive reward then?

[Sarick]

No you didn't, ever.

Prove to me where I didn't

No you didn't, ever. You never pointed out any flaws. You argue for the sake of arguing. You have no arguments and you don't want to give up. That's called stubbornness.

Stubbornness, humm I plea the 5th, Dose that make someones argument any less valid. You've been selectively reading and responding to minor details and leaving out the areas of impact.

I have no problem with people disagreeing. People telling me I'm wrong and insulting me without giving any reason is what I have a problem with. I explained to you in detail why this wouldn't hurt anyone. I know my last post was long, but don't let it scare you, it's in there. You on the other hand have only one argument, and that's accusing me of wanting to stand out.

We've explained why it would hurt the game. ME?, if you read through the post I can't be singled out several people have said they disagree with the system you've been promoting dispute everything you've said to sway them. On these forms I saw a quote that said something like this. If a large group of people are saying one thing and your saying another maybe you're the oddball out.

Look at the Votes on the OP vs the ones on the 3rd post. There's your darn relevance its not just me on this side of the field I just speak louder.