Cure V, Raise II Where?

[Juxtaposition]

If you want to swing a sword and cast magic, go level Blue Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to melee, get over it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If you want to swing a sword and cast magic, go level Blue Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to melee, get over it.

I never understand that, normal melee hits RDM and BLU hit the same, with Enspells RDM wins, BLU wins on WeapnSkills though, Eitherway, Parties are dead anyway so who cares.

[Xikeroth]

If you want to swing a sword and cast magic, go level Blue Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to melee, get over it.

Ok so lemme get this strait... its perfectly fine for a job like DNC to do respectable damage, self skillchain, enfeeb with effects that are very different from RDM, even buff the party with a haste samba AND heal for more then we do? No its not thats called overpowered and imbalanced.

RDM used to be a job of choice meaning we could do whatever we want. Its a "jack of all trades" job as explained by the developers of the game. Didn't want to heal? Didn't have to just find a WHM friend. You could nuke, melee so long as your buffs and enfeebs had an effect. Sadly though that "jack of all trades" aspect if all but dead.

But now because of abyssea and SE deciding to take a WoW attempt at AoE killing everything destroys the effect of RDM in a party period, luckily abyssea is only one event out of several we'll get to do at level 99 which means there should be events outside abyssea within the next few months.

What SE needs to do is revive the other aspects of the job, stop making mobs immune to enfeebles for once and start making them immune to something else. I understand the want for cure 5 and Raise 2 but with no more new abyssea content comming out (which is VERY possible that it won't in the next few months) Cure 5 wont even be needed. SE has been trying to make WHM more useful for years and I think us getting cure 5 would do more damage then good. I don't even think SCH should get it.

[Supersun]

It really depends where end game content from here on goes. If they continue endgame content where the HP pools are as ridiculous as they are now then we are definitely going to need a new way to prevent spike deaths. Not necessarily cure 5, though it would work. I just think there could be better options.

If endgame content starts revolving back to normal type stuff then we don't really need it as much. (Though I would debate against that as atma has been a great balancer to jobs. Sure some get the short end but the few that did are in an easily fixable position. What imo needs to NOT be brought back are the abyssites and the cruor buffs. If they continue to make endgame related content that utilizes atma, but leave the abyssites and cruor buffs behind I think for the most part our healing would be fine. That and they need to rethink the !! system, it's good that it prevents people from curbstomping NMs, it's bad that only a few jobs are actually viable at !!ing)

On that topic what is you opinion about Blue Mage being a better healer then Red Mage atm?

[Valkrist]

Coming from a level 90 WHM, RDM, SCH, BLM and DRG point of view, I feel that with the current Cure V spell, RDM and SCH should not have it.

As stated before, not everything will be Abyssea in the coming updates. The need to have a RDM or SCH healing up to 900~ HP in a single cast to a tank with only 1400 HP isn't as much of a necessity. But who am I to say that the coming updates won't give life to new zones that share Abyssea like qualities like Atmas and cruor buffs. Until that point where it is known that RDM and SCH need to be curing for that much outside of Abyssea, I don't see an issue of WHM having C5 or C6.

RDM and SCH will still be the go to job for healing because they are still by far better at longevity of MP, especially now at level 90. Outside of Abyssea, the need to cure 900~ HP instantly has never been an issue to RDMs and SCHs before.

They had been able to do the job perfectly well while buffing the party with hastes and refreshes, all-the-while landing potent enfeebs at level 75. Now we're talking about having RDMs with Refresh II and higher Fast Cast and SCHs with more charges and a Sublimation that can convert up to 12 HP>MP per tick doing everything that a level 75 RDM/SCH did and then with Cure V and other new spells mixed in.

What does that leave WHM outside of Abyssea? RDMs and SCHs cast faster than a WHM while getting access to tools that allow them to be more than just a healer. WHMs will still have the greatest cures per cast without a doubt in both actual and potential cured(Afflatus Solace Stoneskin) with a Cure V. Will a 1100~ Cure 5 and a 275 Stoneskin be necessary? Generally not. Will a Cure VI be necessary with its even bigger numbers? Absolutely not. Will WHMs be able to get back as much MP as a RDM or SCH with /RDM or SCH? Again absolutely not, though is it necessary for a WHM to have as much MP as them? Maybe or maybe not. Only time will tell for that one.

So what exactly is WHM's role outside of Abyssea when RDM and SCH both out perform it? The same role that it has had even before Abyssea. The need to have a dedicated healer with a big "oh shit" button. But when you give RDM and SCH Cure V, the need for a WHM greatly diminishes.



Inside of Abyssea the need for Cure V becomes apparent. Against NMs that like taking chunks of up to 1k and up HP per swing makes RDM and SCH just can't cut it. You have RDMs and SCHs fumbling through Cure III and IV to try to make up the difference and always trying to play catch up. At the same time the enmity generated is skyrocketing due to the amount of Cure IVs expended.

Does this justify RDM and SCH getting Cure V then? I would still have to say no. Just from the recast alone from Fast Cast and Celerity would make WHMs almost obsolete due to the fact that you can spam Cure V. In that same situation where large cures are casted back-to-back, the WHM has to spam both Cure V and VI to do the same while generating significantly more enmity and MP consumed due to Cure VI. So now RDM and SCH can cast the best Cure faster than a WHM, but they still have the longevity to keep the Cure V spamming since they both have the new Refresh tools with the raise in level cap and that they don't have to use the MP inefficient Cure VI. On top of the fact that SCH can then produce greater Cure Vs due to Rapture.

WHM has always been the healer when it comes to situations where large amounts of HP needs to be replenished ASAP. In Abyssea the scenario is the same, just with larger numbers involved.

--

So like I said above, "I feel that with the current Cure V spell, RDM and SCH should not have it." People in other job folders here have discussed alternatives or possible changes that make sense and may be viable without ruining the current game structure.

-Raising the caps on all Cure spells. As well has making Healing Magic skill more important to the Cure formulas.
-Give WHM a Job Trait that lowers enmity of Cure spells. Change the enmity that Cure V and VI generates. (Though personally I like the idea and the direction it's going, I don't see it balancing the jobs enough.)
-Give access to Cure V through the use of atmas. (Again I like the idea, but don't see the balance unless the atma decides to give a penalty as well.)

With all said, I don't see a problem with PLD getting Cure 5 in its current incarnation.

[rog]

Tanks won't have 1400 hp at 99.

[Valkrist]

Tanks won't have 1400 hp at 99.

A galka PLD/NIN gained 79 HP from level 82 to level 90. Extrapolating on that, a level 99 galka PLD/NIN will have about 1633 HP without gear or merits.

A galka PLD/NIN gained a grand total of 148 HP from level 75 to 90. Is that 148 HP outside of Abyssea demanding a Cure V to make up the difference?

This still doesn't produce a viable reason for why a RDM or a SCH needs Cure V.

[rog]

A galka PLD/NIN gained 79 HP from level 82 to level 90. Extrapolating on that, a level 99 galka PLD/NIN will have about 1633 HP without gear or merits.

A galka PLD/NIN gained a grand total of 148 HP from level 75 to 90. Is that 148 HP outside of Abyssea demanding a Cure V to make up the difference?

This still doesn't produce a viable reason for why a RDM or a SCH needs Cure V.

And how much from gear?

[Seriha]

What do I want for RDM? I just want a choice. If I feel like nuking today, I can grab my INT/MATK gear and go to town. If wanna melee, I can grab a good TP and WS set then have at it. If I feel like being more supportive, then I can /WHM and hang back, doling out the cures and status recoveries. I don't expect to be able to do all at once. All can be achieved with different flavors of implementation to help differentiate from other jobs.

What I don't want is that option being skewed so hard that a particular role is never possible. Pre-Abyssea, we were skewed far more toward WHM. All of WHM's added tricks really didn't mean much when all you were fighting were weak mobs that didn't (AoE) enfeeble. If you had MP, you could cure. There was no room for debate, you just did it. Post-Abyssea, we've skewed a bit more toward the BLM side as it's at least one part out of job that upgraded, but even so RDMs still get invited to cure parties, or worse, alliances. The melee side has never been a contender in the community's eyes because there was simply no incentive. I can't blame the community for that because SE's been rather hands off about making it viable.

I know the low-man obsession is the big thing now, and bringing more people to do whatever is essentially taboo, but if you can't get someone who can Cure V or VI, getting two people who can Cure IV is the next step. If enmity is a concern for longer fights, that's when you then start looking into more -enmity gear or put a THF alongside your healers to chip away their hate every minute. So, really, I'm not worried so much about RDMs screwing WHMs, I'm more worried about RDMs screwing RDMs trying to be more like them.

[Valkrist]

And how much from gear?

I'm sorry, just because you're factoring in the HP change from leveling and from gear will not cause a RDM or a SCH to suddenly need to be curing up to 900~ HP. RDMs and SCHs were okay with Cure IV before when it only cured up to at the very most 40% of a player's health with a cure that's around the 450 HP range. Because of Abyssea numbers, everyone believes that now all healers must be able to heal in the 900-1100 range with a single cure even though outside of Abyssea we're only talking about a gain of 300 HP, or more, through new gear and from leveling from 90 to 99.