Cure V, Raise II Where?

[Trangnai]

You CAN replace the mnk with another melee. You CANNOT replace the whm with another healer.

See the problem?

We don't want RDM to be better, we want RDM to be VIABLE.

theres also how many more melees? and the last i check theres still only a select few that can replace said mnk. considering this game only has 3 healers to begin with, I don't see there being a reason that whm shouldn't be the best. honestly, SE should add more healing jobs in general. but by the time you have enoguh jobs to equal out all the unbalanced verables in this game there will be 80 jobs.

[RaenRyong]

WHM isn't just the best, it's the only. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. You can replace that MNK with NIN on any mob, with WAR on most mobs, with a SAM or a DRG or anything because WHM is that damn good. Only a few NMs require a dedicated "tank" in lowman (which is MNK or NIN these days).

[Silvers]

Honestly, WHMs are easily replaced with a second character. I know plenty of my linkshell members who dualbox a second character as WHM when the occassion calls for it. Typically this is done when they don't want to play WHM at all and instead DD for the fun of it.
Maybe I'm coming from the wrong mentality on it. I see the concerns existing WHMs have, but I think the fears are unfounded. WHM/RDM before at 82+ still has Refresh and Convert, and that doesn't change just because RDM gets Cure V at whatever level it gets assigned. The level progression is there, and so far it's been applied to elemental spells (Stone/Water/Aero/Fire/Blizzard IV and soon to be Thunder IV). Our nuking power was always decent for the work we applied it to with Blizzard III and that was at 75. Healing Magic on RDM imo is the only thing that's stagnated.

          RDM     WHM
Cure        3       1
Cure II    14      11
Cure III   26      21
Cure IV    48      41
Cure V     ??      61
Cure VI    ??      80
Raise      38      25
Raise II   ??      56
Raise III  ??      70

As you can see, RDMs level progression with Cure started at level 3 and progressed to the next tier at 11, 12, 12.
WHM started at 1 (of course) and progressed 10, 10, 20, 20, 19 (possibly 19 for next tier if SE so chooses).

If it continues without an addition to RDMs line of healing, when level 99 arrives, anyone can /RDM and get Cure IV while still having Convert and Refresh.
I welcome any addition to my healing line of magic, the statement to give RDM Cure V was
more a quick and dirty solution to continue our existing natural progression.
Hell even a modded Cure V with the original enmity rules would be better than spamming two Cure IV's back to back and
pulling MORE enmity than a Cure IV, Cure V, and Cure VI back to back on WHM.

Regarding Raise, the exact same progression(or currently lack thereof) with WHM. Starting at 25, it goes 31, 14... One can only assume they weren't given Raise II at level 50 to keep some form of challenge in the game.

With RDM, even if you assume a 2x level difference starting at 38, adding 38 puts you at 76... even allowing for a 50 level difference (which is MORE than the difference between Raise and Raise III on WHM) we still should've seen it at 88...
That was kind of where I was expecting to use it.

61 level progression (mind you it's extreme) puts it at level 99... But that's the same level progression it takes to get 5 tiers of Cure and 2 tiers of Raise on WHM... Raise II's xp difference is not that great a deal that it would be game-breaking to give us a second Raise we could use in the event of a partial Alliance wipe and it's useless when we solo anyway, so where's a valid counterargument?
It can't be subbed; SCH gets it at level 70(addendum:white) but their Cure IV(native) comes at level 55...
SCH for Cure btw was 12, 13, 25. Worst case scenario it should be Addendum: White for Cure V at 93 (12, 13, 25, 38)

I just don't see how these spells were overlooked in the initial 3 level increases. I would rather see if there's any consideration for adding these spells or some equivalent to RDM (please) and/or SCH at any point. SCH I don't play so whenever they get it, they get it idc, I just figured I'd toss the argument out.

Trying to make sense of things we don't have through relating how SE implemented things in the past and how they are now, holds little relevence or least you should have that mind set. If you think start thinking about how things was before and how they adding things now, flags are going to fly for all the patterns they broke. One could question why does RDM get Protect V at 77 and Shell V at 87? RDM used to recieve Protect and Shell at the same level as WHM. One could also question why Regen 3 was added to SCH at 83 and they don't have Regen 4, when before SCH recieved Regen spells before any other job. Not many things are being added with a streamline or direct correlation to things in the past. There has to be some deviation to outline roles, we all understand that. The need for a higher cure is greater now. During the first two cap raises, HP was not being pushed to where it is now. Not as many people had the abyssites to do so then as they do now. I don't think the spells was overlooked, I think SE didn't see the need for them at the cap increases at the time.

[Mirabelle]

I ask the RDM's that don't want Cure V: what do you want RDM to be. Pre-ToAU we were refresh-bots to maintain the mages MP. Post-ToAU we were cure-bots that could maintain MP through the rapid fire TP burns and still adequately heal.
Post-Abyssea we are needed neither for curing (which we aren't good enough at) or refreshing (no longer needed with refresh atmas, subbable refresh and convert). We were never needed for enfeebles. We still aren't. We were never great at nuking. We are better but still woeful compared to BLM. We have never been great DD'ers and still aren't. We have been great tanks but that ability was nerfed a while ago.
So if you can't be an alternate healer, what role do you think you fit in a party? Or do you think we should just be happy in a niche of solo survivability? Jack of all trades doesn't work in this game. You have to be good at something to get into parties. For RDM that's always been MP management and Curing. Unless SE suddenly changes the effects of enfeebles, it will remain so.

[Mojo]

Others beat me to it but whether or not you have a MNK is hardly important. Almost any other melee job is perfectly fine to have tanking. The WHM, however, cannot be replaced by any other class. It is the one job that is absolutely mandatory for many Abyssea NMs. It's not possible for a RDM or SCH to keep up with the numbers that some Abyssea NMs are putting out. If there ever is a situation in Abyssea in which RDM healing is adequate, then the job becomes replaced by BLM/WHM because amber procs are intrinsically more important than whatever dismissible healing improvement RDM may offer over BLM/WHM. It's already been shown that, even if Cure V was given to SCH and RDM, WHM would still be far superior for many reasons. It would at least make those two jobs viable options, however. So what's the big deal?

[Quetzacoatl]

I ask the RDM's that don't want Cure V: what do you want RDM to be. Pre-ToAU we were refresh-bots to maintain the mages MP. Post-ToAU we were cure-bots that could maintain MP through the rapid fire TP burns and still adequately heal.
Post-Abyssea we are needed neither for curing (which we aren't good enough at) or refreshing (no longer needed with refresh atmas, subbable refresh and convert). We were never needed for enfeebles. We still aren't. We were never great at nuking. We are better but still woeful compared to BLM. We have never been great DD'ers and still aren't. We have been great tanks but that ability was nerfed a while ago.
So if you can't be an alternate healer, what role do you think you fit in a party? Or do you think we should just be happy in a niche of solo survivability? Jack of all trades doesn't work in this game. You have to be good at something to get into parties. For RDM that's always been MP management and Curing. Unless SE suddenly changes the effects of enfeebles, it will remain so.

I'll just say this: Not. Everything. Is. Abyssea. and only in EXP parties we really don't see a necessity for Enfeebles. Perhaps nukes now, but saying you're not needed for Enfeebles is flat-out ridiculous if you ever hope to help your tanks survive on NMs/HNMs. I still also still refresh mages just to keep their MP going that much faster (BLU, BLM).

[GERM]

theres also how many more melees? and the last i check theres still only a select few that can replace said mnk. considering this game only has 3 healers to begin with, I don't see there being a reason that whm shouldn't be the best. honestly, SE should add more healing jobs in general. but by the time you have enoguh jobs to equal out all the unbalanced verables in this game there will be 80 jobs.

WHM is a main healing job but you can sub it with any other job that can heal depending on situation lets count jobs that have and still can be used for healing..
1 WHM 2 RDM 3 SCH 4 DNC 5 BLU 6 PLD 7 SMN 8 DRG 9 BLM
the last 3 like I said are very situational and needs a /healing job but and this is mainly outside abyssea these have been used but in abyssea which people are saying RDM can't keep up the healing with Cure IV its not possible nor can most of these other jobs..
The argument isn't that RDM can't do it but more of the idea that they offer a lot more then just a cycle job which a lot if not most RDM will say is boring. RDM offers a lot more to the table other then a A- Enhancing and B healing trait the A+ enfeebling is also practically obsoleted in abyssea especially in exp parties but low man seal hunting people shout for WHM for a reason, they offer not only a proc spell but the easiest to maintain healing ability even after 99 RDM will have most procs but with elemental magics but won't have AM spells and most aga spells but they will more then likely have Cure V which can do a little better with 800ish HP restores compared to its 400 atm. Haste is getting to the point where is being obsoleted due to gear and Refresh is the same way with atmas and gear. A job /RDM can have refresh spell and can refresh themselves and have convert. SqEnix said that they were not going to make it so a job is going to be replaced but thats whats going on and unless they give out better abilities then composure and Refresh II WHM/RDM or SCH/RDM will beable to obsolete RDM with lack of once popular enfeebles..

I'll just say this: Not. Everything. Is. Abyssea.

That is right not everything is but a lot of things are at this point in FFXI history.. People want gear and clears and this and that FROM abyssea and this is the best place to obtain high end gear with little effort compared to other stuff such as salvage and nyzule isle but that is still not for sure how effective the augmenting system is going to be after its released.. Not to mention the god gear is getting to the point where its soloable to obtain but its also getting to point where stuff is being over camped already by several small groups if not just individuals...

When the abyssea panic dies down and people start returning to the real world then people are going to start complaining about not having enough things to do or they are bored.. Dynamis is going to be very low man capable after the next update (as if its not already but the average joe blow isn't joining because they aren't offered enough of a reward for the 3 hours spend doing it) but I bet einjar is going to follow suit which is great considering the limited amount of people still doing it...

[Quetzacoatl]

I can't understand where Enfeebling is said to be obsolete. Sure, a WHM can do it just as good, but RDM has the better skill to keep the debuffs on and a variety of spells for it. If anything, Silence ends up being resisted a lot, though Addle is as good as it gets.

Also, why in the world would Haste spell become obsolete? Gear Haste is not the same as Spell Haste.

[Duelle]

So if you can't be an alternate healer, what role do you think you fit in a party? Or do you think we should just be happy in a niche of solo survivability? Jack of all trades doesn't work in this game. You have to be good at something to get into parties. For RDM that's always been MP management and Curing. Unless SE suddenly changes the effects of enfeebles, it will remain so.

How about the magic fencer we've been touted as but have been anything but for the last four+ years? I'd love to see us taken away from the healer stigma for a while and be allowed to do more. That's another part (a small one at that) of why I would oppose cure V; as we are right now, you're basically perpetuating an image that needs to be killed with fire if we are to hope to be able to do more than just refresh and cure.

[rog]

WHM is a main healing job but you can sub it with any other job that can heal depending on situation lets count jobs that have and still can be used for healing..
1 WHM 2 RDM 3 SCH 4 DNC 5 BLU 6 PLD 7 SMN 8 DRG 9 BLM

You can remove rdm, sch, dnc, pld, smn, and blm from that list. Cure 4 is useless, and hardly worth casting. Drg can sometimes heal, but because of HB requirements, is not always viable, since they can't always keep someone capped off.

Whm will still be the best healer, even if rdm gets cure 5. Nothing will change that. The only difference will be that rdm will become a viable alternative.