Cure V, Raise II Where?

[Quetzacoatl]

Yeah, if only /sch stratagems weren't 2 min recast, and wasting them on cures wasn't retarded.

Also, fyi, you can't cap your recasts without march. 50% fast cast only lowers recast by 25%.

You do realize you can low-man things now? In that case you probably won't need /SCH strategems anyway! and regardless, you'll still bump your recast down to 20 seconds. That'll still leave you with Cure 4 for 20 seconds considering your tank's not a jackass at what he's doing.

All I'm saying is the extra effort from WHM will not be needed so much anymore when RDM does (if it ever does) get Cure 5. And that is going backwards.

[rog]

Right, because having the option to use either rdm or whm is worse than just needing a whm for everything.

Whm will be just fine without a monopoly on healing.

[Quetzacoatl]

It wouldn't even be an option anymore. RDM has been a highly accessible job for years in ToAU's reign, and will continue to be so outside abyssea.

It's either we let WHM have their cookie-cutter spot in some roles or share it and make them obsolete. This is why SE has to think carefully on what they should do to better RDM's curing ability.

[rog]

Or we could be interchangeable jobs, with no significant advantages either way. Whm would have better healing, rdm would have better endurance, and enfeebles. We'd be approximately even, depending on the situation. Neither would be obsolete. Yes, rdm would likely have a slight advantage overall, but not enough that a whm couldn't manage healing anything a rdm could.

[Quetzacoatl]

I really want to buy your argument. I really do. Perhaps I just think too much in black and white, but that's all it has ever come down to in the game: black & white thinking, because SE eventually does something that turns the tides on jobs' overall usefulness. I'm still saying we should get at least a Curasa spell before we even leap at the thought of RDM getting Cure 5 so fast, and observe how it'll affect the two jobs in competition for healing.

[Mojo]

It's long overdue for both RDM and SCH. They're both completely inadequate for filling any kind of healing roll. The jobs have been pitifully crippled by Abyssea. For all of you people claiming that it might marginalize WHM, maybe sit down and actually compare actual numbers before making such absurd statements.

To begin with, WHM can cap Cure Potency (50%) while also healing in their AF3+2 body. Granted, this requires obtaining some hard to get gear, but it's still possible. With the same difficult to acquire gear, the most RDM can hope for is 30%.
I'm going to be somewhat lazy and just use base stats of 150 MND and 150 VIT and their respective healing magic skills at cap (note: this simple reduction actually favors RDM.)

Using this calculator, http://members.shaw.ca/pizza_steve/c...alculator.html, which is conveniently programmed with cure calculations, the results are clear.

Job	Cure IV	Stoneskin	Total	Cure V	Stoneskin	Total
RDM	538	0		538	947	0		947
WHM	627	220		847	1105	387		1492

Cure	Marginal Gains
IV	57.4%
V	57.5%

I'm aware that these numbers aren't going to be spot on because of the approximations I made, but they're going to be pretty good ballpark numbers. White Mages would still be curing nearly 60% more efficiently than Red Mages, which more or less eclipses the advantage of slightly more Refresh (and is this even necessary most of the time?) This doesn't even cover the other benefits that White Mage can offer (Cure VI and the like.) The job would be far from any kind of marginalization.

[rog]

The idea that no one is going to want whm because rdm is slightly better is ridiculous. It happened in toau because rdm was far, far better. That is no longer the case. Whm now has 3/tic refresh from gear, self refresh, and vert now. Hell, even once /sch was released, whm became much more popular. Rdm was definitely still preferred, but whm was acceppted if one couldn't be found. And even with /sch, rdm was still quite a bit better at the time, so of course it makes sense. However now that whm has adequate mp recovery, as well as superior healing, it will always be in demand, even if its monopoly is broken by giving rdm cure 5.

The idea that no one will want whms anymore just because rdm is a little better is just as ridiculous as the idea that no one will want mnks/sams/nin/etc just because war is better. Is war a better dd? Yes, it is. However the margin is small enough that it really doesn't matter one bit, and the jobs can be considered more or less equal, with some being more useful for different situations.

A job needs to be significantly worse than others for it to lose all demand. That will never again happen to whm.

[Rambus]

WHM are on cure VI already.

The only thing that makes cure V overpowered is the static Enmity that cure V has. SE can drop that, and then give WHM some trait of cure enmity down that works outside caps. Make cure VI a better cure / mp ratio, then you are fine letting PLD, RDM and SCH having cure V. you cannot have jobs on /WHM and at 99 /RDM that has the same cure power as jobs that has cures as a main. It is not a progression for having the same level cure of natural cure jobs (PLD, RDM,SCH) and having anything sub it. Not giving PLD, RDM, SCH cure V just shows SE wasn’t fully ready to past this game past 75. I still think this game is not meant to past 75 and they are trying to force it that way.

I do think RDM can use raise II, SCH can use raise III and WHM use raise IV by 99, you need progression in all areas. I do not know about PLD and raise II though, they originally never had a raise.

[rog]

I do not know about PLD and raise II though, they originally never had a raise.

They originally got it at 75.

[Rambus]

They originally got it at 75.

Pretty sure it was nothing > 75> 50
could be wrong i guess, been a while