Cure V, Raise II Where?

[rog]

Ingoring the stoneskin is just as wrong as assuming 100% of it is used. It may or may not be used. You need to consider a number of things to get an idea of just how useful it is:

1) is the person being cured subbing nin, or using seigan? obviously if they are, it will be much less useful.
2) if /nin, does the mob use frequent aoes?
3) if /nin, are they actually using utsu1, or just utsu2?
4) how often and for how long does the person usually have hate? Obviously ss does nothing if they don't have hate.
5) does the person have native stoneskin access, and will they just overwrite it with a new one as soon as they can?

etc.

It's difficult to get an accurate idea of just how much of it is used, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore it entirely.

If i were to guess, i'd say for a /nin dd, probably around 20-40% of the total effect is actually used. Otherwise without /nin it's probably more like 70-90%. Again, it obviously depends on the situation, hence the large ranges.

If you're going to factor in Afflatus Solace, then you have to factor in the Phalanx that RDM can give to the tank.

Well of course. Why wouldn't you?

It's not easy to determine which job is objectively better (well, right now it is, but if rdm were to get cure5, then it wouldn't be so obvious, and then it would), and there are numerous variables that need to be accounted for. You can't ignore anything.

In the long run, Phalanx reduces a lot of HP that needs to be cured, potentially making up for the lack of a Cure V.

The long run isn't always as important as the short term. Frequently phalanx amounts to little more than mp savings, which of course are meaningless. Phalanx will very, very rarely save someone from dying. Not to mention overhealing is done incredibly often, lowering any advantage. It definitely is very useful outside abyssea, where mp may be a concern, but inside, it adds extremely little, and definitely does not even come close to making up for a lack of cure5.

[Yekyaa]

The long run isn't always as important as the short term. Frequently phalanx amounts to little more than mp savings, which of course are meaningless. Phalanx will very, very rarely save someone from dying. Not to mention overhealing is done incredibly often, lowering any advantage. It definitely is very useful outside abyssea, where mp may be a concern, but inside, it adds extremely little, and definitely does not even come close to making up for a lack of cure5.

People actually merited Phalanx II or are we talking about RDM/SCH? PLD tank gets Phalanx natively, so maybe I missed something here. You guys are talking about giving Phalanx to the tank. Why? Slow II/Paralyze II are a much better option and probably a MUCH better damage mitigator if it could be actually measured.

[rog]

People actually merited Phalanx II or are we talking about RDM/SCH? PLD tank gets Phalanx natively, so maybe I missed something here. You guys are talking about giving Phalanx to the tank. Why? Slow II/Paralyze II are a much better option and probably a MUCH better damage mitigator if it could be actually measured.

/sch most likely. Many of us also have a merit in phalanx2, which obviously isn't much, but still helps. Or there's the occasional person that does 5/5 phalanx, 2 dia, 1-2 slow, 1-2 para, which is certainly an acceptable setup.

[Protey]

Body 2
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[Crazze]

So this is something I am not understanding. RDM needs Cure V to be viable in abyssea while doing nm's. Not exactly true but if healing more than one other person, debuffing a mob, and buffing players, it is COMPLETELY true. If you disagree you have either never healed as a rdm in abyssea in more than a duo or never played RDM at all.

Then there is the argument that outside abyssea RDM would completely over power WHM and WHM would then be obsolete. But as someone (someone against RDM getting Cure V I might add said) mentioned, outside of abyssea the hp increase isn't significant enough for the need of higher tiered Cure spells. So giving RDM cure V would make whm obsolete how exactly?

Oh and I am so glad someone mentioned Auspice because I will always prefer a good whm that knows to use Auspice over a RDM that has cure 5. Mix that in with all the other goodies WHM has over RDM and you get the conclusion. RDM > WHM both with cure V is a false statement. Giving RDM Cure V will not break anything or make any other job obsolete. It will just give us more options.

And let me tell you as a RDM I want Cure V as is. Cure IV's may not pull hate in abyssea all that often since DD's are so strong but if I have to spam them outside of abyssea trust me hate is going to be a very big issue.

Hell most of the WHM's I know have other jobs leveled and would like to play them as well, but for the most part if have WHM leveled 80% of the time that's the job you will be on. I would really expect WHM's to be on the side of giving Cure V to RDM so that they might just be able to enjoy all those other jobs they have leveled.

Since abyssea has come out I get to play my RDM once or twice a month, so I wouldn't mind giving WHM's a little break and be able to help fill a curing role. At least then we could alternate but without cure V it's not really an option.

At most if RDM got Cure V they would be on par as a healer compared to WHM not better. WHM has certain abilities that would make it the better option for certain nm's or situations. RDM has certain abilities that would make it the better option for certain nm's or situations.

Saying WHM's would be less sought after or obsolete if RDM got cure V is probably the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time.

As for SCH getting Cure V, I say give it to them as well, leave the static enmity but like haste make it unusable with accession or SCH would probably out heal a WHM.

If you want to give it to PLD then that would be the case where your want to make the enmity the same way cure IV's enmity works.

Go ahead and tear apart my post I don't care if you can't see at least some warrant in my arguments you are just stubborn and I don't care what you think anyway.

Also if they implemented some other cure spell that isn't quite cure V I'd probably be happy with that too but I still think Cure V is the better option.

Another thing I was reading said something about phalanx? Who in the hell still has phalanx II merited? If your tank is PLD they phalanx themselves. If your tank is MNK all you do is cure dump them anyway. If THF or NIN(hell even DNC) if they are getting hit enough that they need phalanx they should just quit now.

[Vraelia]

Seriously.....you guys obviously don't pay attention to HP while within Abyssea. MNKs and WARs (possibly other jobs) can get over 2.5k+ easily. And since my Cure IV as RDM can only heal for 510 or so HP per cast, it makes me panic a lot. Because I always have to cast Cure IV and III, back and forth, TRYING to keep their HP up. And plus, I generate a lot of hate through this. It would be awesome to have a Cure Spell that doesn't give much Enmity. I would LOVE to see RDMs get Cure V. WHMs can get Cure VII for all I care. I just want another Tier of Healing for my RDM.

I am both a 90 RDM and WHM btw. I understand the need to give RDMs Cure V. This won't take WHMs away form getting an invite or doing things (seal hunting, stone hunting, ect) they'll ALWAYS have a role in this game. They are the best of the best on healing.

As for Raise 2? I would hope SE will give us this. And tweak the Abyssites that allows us to lose LESS EXP while in Abyssea, to make Raising necessary again. And possibly Tweaking Atma of the Apocalypse.

Also if SE gives us Raise 2, then hell, give WHMs Raise IV.

This bickering is obviously pointless. Give RDMs Cure V and WHMs Cure VII. And RDMs Raise 2 and WHMs Raise IV and be done with it. Everyone wins. lols

[Supersun]

And plus, I generate a lot of hate through this.

Why is this necessarily a bad thing? Sure it might suck if you are subbing /sch, but if you are expecting to take hate why wouldn't you just sub /nin instead? The difference between /sch and /nin really isn't that big inside abyssea where MP is more or less unlimited anyway. Which brings what I said before that giving Rdm Cure V would fix it, but is incredibly lazy because when you get down to it it would be better if different healing jobs would heal in different ways. I don't want to heal on rdm more or less the exact way I would heal on whm. I would just play whm if I wanted to do that. I mean there's other ways to heal besides "spike a huge low enmity cure." We had a topic similar on Allah where we discussed different types of cures, but I think it's a good idea to bring it up back here.



1) The simple cure bomb - just like the name suggests this is the spike cure that cure 5 is. I probably don't need to go into detail that much since this is what like 95% of all cures are. What does need to be discussed about it is the amount of enmity generated. There's 3 ways I can see a new spike spell give enmity to the player. Either using a formula to give like Cures 1-4 (it doesn't have to be the same formula though), give a static low amount of enmity like cure 5-6, or give a static high amount of enmity more like Exuviation. I believe that Whm should keep the low enmity spike cure to itself with maybe sch sharing it (though I think they should get other things). If Rdm were to receive more spike spells I would prefer them to keep a curing formula (it would likely have to be adjusted slightly). Pld on the other hand I believe should receive more cure spells with fixed high amounts of enmity.

2) The regen. Once again, we know these. These are pretty much the other 5% of curing spells we have. Their main purpose is MP efficiency. You spend a little now and to give that person like 5-40 HP every 3 secs for 1-3 mins for a fairly good amount of HP recovered for the MP spent by then end of the spell.

3) The HP buffer, aka. Stoneskin. This is where you give someone a pool of "fake HP" for a certain time limit whether that time limit is 5-15 mins with Stoneskin or a short time such as with solstice. While this is more only a bandaid compares to a spike cure the goal of this would be to give someone time to cure someone up to full HP without him taking any more real damage. At the same time though you have to be careful because if you had a Stoneskin that had the HP resistance of Cure V that would more or less be a better cure as long as the monster doesn't spam dispel. I mean why wait for the monster to actually hurt the tank when you can just keep a buff Stoneskin on him. There would need to be restrictions on this type of "cure" either with the max amount of HP it has, it's duration, it's recast, and/or it's MP cost.

4) The last one were really see in XI, the damage mitigation, aka the Migawari. This is once again something used to prevent damage your tank takes while you cure him to full HP. Keep in mind that there are different ways to handle damage mitigation such as Phalanx, Sentinel's Scherzo, Sentinel, Schurzen, or other ways. You can either mitigate damage completely, by a fixed amount by a set value, or by a amount that changes (usually decreases over time), and the duration of the effect can vary as well with it wearing off with an amount of hits or a set amount of time. I think a creative way to use one of these would be a Sentinel that doesn't decrease with time but by the amount or number of hits.

Now to start getting into the ones we don't really see in XI

5) The "Fast" Regen. Where regen is more concerned about MP efficiency and enmity, but doesn't do much for the current safety of your tank, while Spike cures tend to be more inefficient, but "when the tank is in red efficiency is the last thing on your mind." This takes a small step away from efficiency and more towards safety. This is the type of regen where you get something like 200 HP/tick, but it only lasts for 15 or so secs. Once again, not so great if the tank is in Red, but if your tank is in yellow or high orange after a TP attack with no threat of a follow up this would be a perfectly viable spell to use.

6) The Mix. This combines the fast regen with a spike spell. It takes another step away from efficiency towards safety. Basically imagine a Cure IV that gives a regen effect that restores 100/tick for 9 secs. It's a pretty safe way to protect your tank especially when you can alternate a lower spike spell unless the monster is planning on doing back to back TP attacks. Now there are other things you can mix as well such as solstice that mixes a spike cure with an HP buffer and exploring some other types of mixtures would certainly be interesting. The most common mixture in other games like mentioned above is mixing a spike cure with a fast regen.

7) The variable cure, aka the Cura (alright technically this is in XI, but with the amount of time most people actually use misery >.>). Like mentioned before in an example for Curasa, this could be a spell that recovers HP based on an amount of damage your tank takes, whether a pool of damage builds over time giving you a "rainy day cure," or it could restore a portion or all of the damage he took from his last big attack (I mentioned big attack here since there would have to be some minimum damage restriction, likely a percentage of his HP, otherwise the spell would be near unusable since monsters love to follow their painful TP attacks with a poke, and it would count the poke as the last attack otherwise). This is a pretty powerful yet balanced cure if you tweak at the numbers right in a sense that any job that gets this could easily have enough power to main heal regardless of the monsters toughness (unless it's the ONLY cure they have or their other methods of recovering HP are like cure 1 on an abyssean monk bad), because the cure scales up with the toughness of the monster. As long as your tank survives you can use your spike cure to protect him.



Like I mentioned before sure giving us cure V would "fix" Red Mage healing, but it's such an uncreative way to do it when they can do so much more and actually create new unique healers that play differently. We don't need multiple jobs that all heal the exact same way. We need healers that each have their weaknesses and strengths and niches that they specialize in. If I were to give Red Mage certain cures mentioned above I think the job reflects more with a formula spike cure, an HP buffer, damage mitigation, and a "mix" cure. Sch in my mind mixes well with Spike Cures, Regens, and Fast Regens. Whm's style works well with most of the above except HP buffers and damage mitigation. At least that's how I more see the jobs myself. Other peeple may have other opinions and XI's Devs have their own image themselves. So when I say Cure V is lazy it's because there's way more then one to protect a tank.

[Swords]

The only REAL purpose for Raise II would be, to allow us to raise multiple KO's faster. Considering the Exp update and Abyssea, there should NOT be any more concerns about losing exp anymore. Additionally, Raise IV woud be a bit redundant considering Raise III returns 90% of exp which is less than 300exp lost per death.

As far as Cure V is concerned, it would be nice to help bridge the gap in those desperate moments in Abyssea. I do not see it as a gamebreaker outside of Abyssea though. To start, MP is limited for both WHM and RDM outside of Abyssea, they can't infinately spam IV, V, and VI leisurely. Secondly, Cure IV has a bigger impact outside of Abyssea than in considering all jobs will have considerably less HP. And last, any group that does not need heavy curing every 5 seconds likely won't need to use a WHM anyways.

Don't forget most everything outside of Abyssea has not changed since it came around, so a new spell like Cure V for RDM won't break WHM outside of Abyssea because SE never did anything to really correct the original problem to begin with.

[Luvbunny]

No to Cure 5, it should stay with Whms. Yes to Raise II. I rather SE tweak and make RDM the ultimate enfeebler and make our spells actually land on the endgame mobs. Maybe tweak Phalanx II as phalanxga and you can merit it to reduce damage up to 25%. And make ascension work with Enspells II.

[Supersun]

Maybe tweak Phalanx II as phalanxga and you can merit it to reduce damage up to 25%.

That completely defeats the point of phalanx. Phalanx reduces damage by a set number, not a percentage.

And make ascension work with Enspells II.

They would need to fix their accuracy before they did that otherwise everyone will never break 2 additional damage.