Cure V, Raise II Where?

[Mojo]

I came up with the 50% number by adding the stoneskin that Solace provides. It comes out to be about that much.

[Duelle]

Blu already has a cure 5, and you don't see them taking over whm's roll. I wonder why that is.

Because that class is designed and played as a melee mage with cures for emergencies (despite being quite potent and capable on paper) whereas certain people seem bent on trying to cram us into the role of healer? Not to mention few try to actually cram BLU into the role of healer. That's a hell of a lot of leeway right there.

[Valkrist]

If you factor in the 15% Cure Potency with the 35% Stoneskin, you're actually looking at a 101~% Cure Potency difference in WHM's favor. (You can't just add 15% to 35%.) With that said, automatically assuming that Afflatus Solace heals that 35% Stoneskin is wrong to do. The 35% is not cured, but potentially mitigated. The only time you factor in the 35% is if the tank is face tanking and will take enough damage where 30-45 seconds can't pass and the Stoneskin is eaten through.

I'm sure people will see this as, "OMG HE SAID WHM HAS 101% MORE CURE POTENCY THAN US!" It is very wrong to factor in the Stoneskin into the equation unless you're talking about fighting NMs where you're spamming Cure V.

If you're going to factor in Afflatus Solace, then you have to factor in the Phalanx that RDM can give to the tank. Even then, you're still comparing apples to oranges because you're then messing with the issue of how many times the tank was hit to make the healer have to cast Cure V. With that said, it's possible for a tank to take less damage with the RDM's Phalanx (or Phalanx II) than the WHM's Stoneskin. In the long run, Phalanx reduces a lot of HP that needs to be cured, potentially making up for the lack of a Cure V.

[rog]

Ingoring the stoneskin is just as wrong as assuming 100% of it is used. It may or may not be used. You need to consider a number of things to get an idea of just how useful it is:

1) is the person being cured subbing nin, or using seigan? obviously if they are, it will be much less useful.
2) if /nin, does the mob use frequent aoes?
3) if /nin, are they actually using utsu1, or just utsu2?
4) how often and for how long does the person usually have hate? Obviously ss does nothing if they don't have hate.
5) does the person have native stoneskin access, and will they just overwrite it with a new one as soon as they can?

etc.

It's difficult to get an accurate idea of just how much of it is used, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore it entirely.

If i were to guess, i'd say for a /nin dd, probably around 20-40% of the total effect is actually used. Otherwise without /nin it's probably more like 70-90%. Again, it obviously depends on the situation, hence the large ranges.

If you're going to factor in Afflatus Solace, then you have to factor in the Phalanx that RDM can give to the tank.

Well of course. Why wouldn't you?

It's not easy to determine which job is objectively better (well, right now it is, but if rdm were to get cure5, then it wouldn't be so obvious, and then it would), and there are numerous variables that need to be accounted for. You can't ignore anything.

In the long run, Phalanx reduces a lot of HP that needs to be cured, potentially making up for the lack of a Cure V.

The long run isn't always as important as the short term. Frequently phalanx amounts to little more than mp savings, which of course are meaningless. Phalanx will very, very rarely save someone from dying. Not to mention overhealing is done incredibly often, lowering any advantage. It definitely is very useful outside abyssea, where mp may be a concern, but inside, it adds extremely little, and definitely does not even come close to making up for a lack of cure5.

[Silvers]

It's true that the WHM today definitely has better MP management skills today, but you're comparing a job that at best gets 3 MP/tick from Sublimation, or 3 MP/tick from Refresh I. Then you stack on Serpentes set, AF3+2 body, Refresh hairpin and subligar, coupled with Owleyes. That nets you at best 9 MP/tick at best. RDM gets 11 MP/tick at best. SCH at 15 MP/tick at best. So in terms of pure Refresh, WHM is at the bottom.

It's true that WHM can go /RDM for Convert, but most WHMs will unanimously agree that /RDM is a subjob you only use if you're worried about MP management. Otherwise /SCH is superb in all departments. So generally WHMs MP pool will be about half of RDMs and SCHs.

Very aware of what SCH offers as a sub for whm due to leveled WHM, RDM, and SCH. Thought the benifits of the sub could go without say. You stated before that that outside Abyssea WHM is lacking in MP longevity, in response only stated /rdm beacause it out does /sch in that department by a slight margin. That's just "pure refresh" as you call it, but you still haven't taken in account the return whm recieves from AF3 pants +1/2. Healing for 400+ (cure4) you would get a return of 8MP+ with Orison Pantaloons +1, 20MP+ with Orison Pantaloons +2 (yes I'm low-balling the numbers somewhat). Using Cure 5, those figures can double, alleviating some of the mp burden for cures. Add that to what the your choice of sub does for you. SCH adds to lowering the net spell cost with Light Arts and Conserve MP. The average net MP cost for WHM/SCH for Cure 4 using AF3 leg+2 should be about 52-60MP (curing for 400-500HP with Cure 4 and not taking in Conserve MP into account, and yes #'s can get higher). WHM is better than fine with MP, but it will take time for people to get there.

As ironic as it sounds, I'm sure there would be PLDs out there that would love to be able to heal themselves for more than Cure IV when their dedicated healer can not, regardless of whether or not Cure V generates less enmity. Would Cure V be the spell they normally cast? Absolutely not. You're right that they'll be focusing on casting Cure IV either as a form of enmity generation, or to just heal themselves as much as possible. But if PLD had Cure V, I guarantee that all of them will be using it once they're in critical HP. If this breaks PLD, then Cure I-IV already broke PLDs against all other tanks since the closest comparable tank with a self-heal is MNK.

Before you stated RDM and SCH does fine without Cure 5 but see no need for them to have it. Then after you agree to the suggestion of changing the mechanic for Cure 5 to give to SCH and RDM by having it generate more enmity for jobs other than whm, you think it is good or in PLD best interest to recieve it in it's current form "just to have it". It offers little benefit to them in it's current state.Need more than what you stated to justify PLD having Cure 5 other than "to use when i'm with a healer does not have it". Giving Cure 5 to PLD as the way you state may not break PLD, but it shatters the arguement of why you think RDM and SCH should not get it. In that case why not give it to RDM and SCH "just to have it." as well, they both want to cure others and themselves for more then Cure 4. Then PLD with have a better chance being paired with a Cure 5 healer. Why not give SMN full control over spirits, and add Cure 6 to the Light Spirit's spell list then SMNs can pull out Light Spirits and use Cure 5 & 6 "just to have it". Nothing personally, I'm joking around a bit, but seriously what you're saying here with PLD is just backwards.

[Yekyaa]

The long run isn't always as important as the short term. Frequently phalanx amounts to little more than mp savings, which of course are meaningless. Phalanx will very, very rarely save someone from dying. Not to mention overhealing is done incredibly often, lowering any advantage. It definitely is very useful outside abyssea, where mp may be a concern, but inside, it adds extremely little, and definitely does not even come close to making up for a lack of cure5.

People actually merited Phalanx II or are we talking about RDM/SCH? PLD tank gets Phalanx natively, so maybe I missed something here. You guys are talking about giving Phalanx to the tank. Why? Slow II/Paralyze II are a much better option and probably a MUCH better damage mitigator if it could be actually measured.

[rog]

People actually merited Phalanx II or are we talking about RDM/SCH? PLD tank gets Phalanx natively, so maybe I missed something here. You guys are talking about giving Phalanx to the tank. Why? Slow II/Paralyze II are a much better option and probably a MUCH better damage mitigator if it could be actually measured.

/sch most likely. Many of us also have a merit in phalanx2, which obviously isn't much, but still helps. Or there's the occasional person that does 5/5 phalanx, 2 dia, 1-2 slow, 1-2 para, which is certainly an acceptable setup.

[noodles355]

I'd save accession for Aquaveil over Phalanx to be honest (For an Utsusemi tank of course). Yeah you got two charges but it's worthwhile saving one for emergancies. I suppose there is an argument for Phalanx2 but I prefer my merits elsewhere.

I would like to touch on Rog's argument about HP increases with levels. Someone stated a galka only got like 150HP going from 75 to 90, but Rog stated that you didn't take into account gear. You have to take gear into account gear, it's pretty stupid not to. After converting I now have to heal myself for about 300HP more at 90 than I did at 75.

There is an argument to be said for if you give Rdm C5 then people will make the mistake fo thinking it's the only worthwhile healing job. But personally I don't give woozles about what idiots who can't think for themselves think is the best or only job is available. All the bandwagon idiots used to think Sam was the only worthwhile DD. It wasn't. Same would happen here. All the bandwagon idiots might think rdm is the only worthwhile healer, but that doesn't make it true. Let bandwagon idiots be bandwagon idiots, make friends with non-retarded people and you won't have this problem.

Bigboy made a comment a few pages back about being preferred on Rdm over Whm because he has more trigger spells. Don't be idiotic. Every Trigger a rdm can do a blm can do too, and do more. Whm has triggers only a whm can do. Bringing a Rdm for a trigger job is a completely stupid idea.

Also Please stop saying a Rdm cures faster than Whm because it doesn't. Rdm caps casting time with AF Hat and Relic Body. Whm caps casting time with Rdm SJ, 5/5 Cure cast time merits (which every whm should have) and cure clogs.
If you think rdm can cure faster because of the recast time then you are again wrong. Rdm has one spell it can use, it has to wait 4 seconds with capped recast. Even excluding C6, Whm has 2 spells it can use (C5 and C4) back to back without having to wait on recast. Whm cures so much faster than Rdm and anyone who thinks otherwise just because rdm has fast cast traits is an idiot. If Rdm got C5 neither job would cure faster than the other. They would both have the same (capped) cast time, and they would both be able to alternate between two spells if recast time was an issue. Stop saying rdm cures faster. It just doesn't.

Rog was wrong on one point though, Whm doesn't get 3MP refresh in gear, it gets 6. (7 if you include Owleyes but I'd rather have my Terra's Staff)

[rog]

Rog was wrong on one point though, Whm doesn't get 3MP refresh in gear, it gets 6. (7 if you include Owleyes but I'd rather have my Terra's Staff)

Derp, forgot whm can use owleyes. Body, serpentes, and hairpin. Where is the other 3...?

[Supersun]

Derp, forgot whm can use owleyes. Body, serpentes, and hairpin. Where is the other 3...?

WotG earring would be 1.

Peist Cape?