Cure V, Raise II Where?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If you want to swing a sword and cast magic, go level Blue Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to melee, get over it.

I never understand that, normal melee hits RDM and BLU hit the same, with Enspells RDM wins, BLU wins on WeapnSkills though, Eitherway, Parties are dead anyway so who cares.

[Xikeroth]

If you want to swing a sword and cast magic, go level Blue Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to melee, get over it.

Ok so lemme get this strait... its perfectly fine for a job like DNC to do respectable damage, self skillchain, enfeeb with effects that are very different from RDM, even buff the party with a haste samba AND heal for more then we do? No its not thats called overpowered and imbalanced.

RDM used to be a job of choice meaning we could do whatever we want. Its a "jack of all trades" job as explained by the developers of the game. Didn't want to heal? Didn't have to just find a WHM friend. You could nuke, melee so long as your buffs and enfeebs had an effect. Sadly though that "jack of all trades" aspect if all but dead.

But now because of abyssea and SE deciding to take a WoW attempt at AoE killing everything destroys the effect of RDM in a party period, luckily abyssea is only one event out of several we'll get to do at level 99 which means there should be events outside abyssea within the next few months.

What SE needs to do is revive the other aspects of the job, stop making mobs immune to enfeebles for once and start making them immune to something else. I understand the want for cure 5 and Raise 2 but with no more new abyssea content comming out (which is VERY possible that it won't in the next few months) Cure 5 wont even be needed. SE has been trying to make WHM more useful for years and I think us getting cure 5 would do more damage then good. I don't even think SCH should get it.

[Valkrist]

Coming from a level 90 WHM, RDM, SCH, BLM and DRG point of view, I feel that with the current Cure V spell, RDM and SCH should not have it.

As stated before, not everything will be Abyssea in the coming updates. The need to have a RDM or SCH healing up to 900~ HP in a single cast to a tank with only 1400 HP isn't as much of a necessity. But who am I to say that the coming updates won't give life to new zones that share Abyssea like qualities like Atmas and cruor buffs. Until that point where it is known that RDM and SCH need to be curing for that much outside of Abyssea, I don't see an issue of WHM having C5 or C6.

RDM and SCH will still be the go to job for healing because they are still by far better at longevity of MP, especially now at level 90. Outside of Abyssea, the need to cure 900~ HP instantly has never been an issue to RDMs and SCHs before.

They had been able to do the job perfectly well while buffing the party with hastes and refreshes, all-the-while landing potent enfeebs at level 75. Now we're talking about having RDMs with Refresh II and higher Fast Cast and SCHs with more charges and a Sublimation that can convert up to 12 HP>MP per tick doing everything that a level 75 RDM/SCH did and then with Cure V and other new spells mixed in.

What does that leave WHM outside of Abyssea? RDMs and SCHs cast faster than a WHM while getting access to tools that allow them to be more than just a healer. WHMs will still have the greatest cures per cast without a doubt in both actual and potential cured(Afflatus Solace Stoneskin) with a Cure V. Will a 1100~ Cure 5 and a 275 Stoneskin be necessary? Generally not. Will a Cure VI be necessary with its even bigger numbers? Absolutely not. Will WHMs be able to get back as much MP as a RDM or SCH with /RDM or SCH? Again absolutely not, though is it necessary for a WHM to have as much MP as them? Maybe or maybe not. Only time will tell for that one.

So what exactly is WHM's role outside of Abyssea when RDM and SCH both out perform it? The same role that it has had even before Abyssea. The need to have a dedicated healer with a big "oh shit" button. But when you give RDM and SCH Cure V, the need for a WHM greatly diminishes.



Inside of Abyssea the need for Cure V becomes apparent. Against NMs that like taking chunks of up to 1k and up HP per swing makes RDM and SCH just can't cut it. You have RDMs and SCHs fumbling through Cure III and IV to try to make up the difference and always trying to play catch up. At the same time the enmity generated is skyrocketing due to the amount of Cure IVs expended.

Does this justify RDM and SCH getting Cure V then? I would still have to say no. Just from the recast alone from Fast Cast and Celerity would make WHMs almost obsolete due to the fact that you can spam Cure V. In that same situation where large cures are casted back-to-back, the WHM has to spam both Cure V and VI to do the same while generating significantly more enmity and MP consumed due to Cure VI. So now RDM and SCH can cast the best Cure faster than a WHM, but they still have the longevity to keep the Cure V spamming since they both have the new Refresh tools with the raise in level cap and that they don't have to use the MP inefficient Cure VI. On top of the fact that SCH can then produce greater Cure Vs due to Rapture.

WHM has always been the healer when it comes to situations where large amounts of HP needs to be replenished ASAP. In Abyssea the scenario is the same, just with larger numbers involved.

--

So like I said above, "I feel that with the current Cure V spell, RDM and SCH should not have it." People in other job folders here have discussed alternatives or possible changes that make sense and may be viable without ruining the current game structure.

-Raising the caps on all Cure spells. As well has making Healing Magic skill more important to the Cure formulas.
-Give WHM a Job Trait that lowers enmity of Cure spells. Change the enmity that Cure V and VI generates. (Though personally I like the idea and the direction it's going, I don't see it balancing the jobs enough.)
-Give access to Cure V through the use of atmas. (Again I like the idea, but don't see the balance unless the atma decides to give a penalty as well.)

With all said, I don't see a problem with PLD getting Cure 5 in its current incarnation.

[Tamarsamar]

If you want to swing a sword and cast magic, go level Blue Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to melee, get over it.

If you want to do nothing but heal all day, go level White Mage. RDM is never going to be accepted into parties to main heal, get over it.

[Mojo]

Others beat me to it but whether or not you have a MNK is hardly important. Almost any other melee job is perfectly fine to have tanking. The WHM, however, cannot be replaced by any other class. It is the one job that is absolutely mandatory for many Abyssea NMs. It's not possible for a RDM or SCH to keep up with the numbers that some Abyssea NMs are putting out. If there ever is a situation in Abyssea in which RDM healing is adequate, then the job becomes replaced by BLM/WHM because amber procs are intrinsically more important than whatever dismissible healing improvement RDM may offer over BLM/WHM. It's already been shown that, even if Cure V was given to SCH and RDM, WHM would still be far superior for many reasons. It would at least make those two jobs viable options, however. So what's the big deal?

[GERM]

theres also how many more melees? and the last i check theres still only a select few that can replace said mnk. considering this game only has 3 healers to begin with, I don't see there being a reason that whm shouldn't be the best. honestly, SE should add more healing jobs in general. but by the time you have enoguh jobs to equal out all the unbalanced verables in this game there will be 80 jobs.

WHM is a main healing job but you can sub it with any other job that can heal depending on situation lets count jobs that have and still can be used for healing..
1 WHM 2 RDM 3 SCH 4 DNC 5 BLU 6 PLD 7 SMN 8 DRG 9 BLM
the last 3 like I said are very situational and needs a /healing job but and this is mainly outside abyssea these have been used but in abyssea which people are saying RDM can't keep up the healing with Cure IV its not possible nor can most of these other jobs..
The argument isn't that RDM can't do it but more of the idea that they offer a lot more then just a cycle job which a lot if not most RDM will say is boring. RDM offers a lot more to the table other then a A- Enhancing and B healing trait the A+ enfeebling is also practically obsoleted in abyssea especially in exp parties but low man seal hunting people shout for WHM for a reason, they offer not only a proc spell but the easiest to maintain healing ability even after 99 RDM will have most procs but with elemental magics but won't have AM spells and most aga spells but they will more then likely have Cure V which can do a little better with 800ish HP restores compared to its 400 atm. Haste is getting to the point where is being obsoleted due to gear and Refresh is the same way with atmas and gear. A job /RDM can have refresh spell and can refresh themselves and have convert. SqEnix said that they were not going to make it so a job is going to be replaced but thats whats going on and unless they give out better abilities then composure and Refresh II WHM/RDM or SCH/RDM will beable to obsolete RDM with lack of once popular enfeebles..

I'll just say this: Not. Everything. Is. Abyssea.

That is right not everything is but a lot of things are at this point in FFXI history.. People want gear and clears and this and that FROM abyssea and this is the best place to obtain high end gear with little effort compared to other stuff such as salvage and nyzule isle but that is still not for sure how effective the augmenting system is going to be after its released.. Not to mention the god gear is getting to the point where its soloable to obtain but its also getting to point where stuff is being over camped already by several small groups if not just individuals...

When the abyssea panic dies down and people start returning to the real world then people are going to start complaining about not having enough things to do or they are bored.. Dynamis is going to be very low man capable after the next update (as if its not already but the average joe blow isn't joining because they aren't offered enough of a reward for the 3 hours spend doing it) but I bet einjar is going to follow suit which is great considering the limited amount of people still doing it...

[rog]

WHM is a main healing job but you can sub it with any other job that can heal depending on situation lets count jobs that have and still can be used for healing..
1 WHM 2 RDM 3 SCH 4 DNC 5 BLU 6 PLD 7 SMN 8 DRG 9 BLM

You can remove rdm, sch, dnc, pld, smn, and blm from that list. Cure 4 is useless, and hardly worth casting. Drg can sometimes heal, but because of HB requirements, is not always viable, since they can't always keep someone capped off.

Whm will still be the best healer, even if rdm gets cure 5. Nothing will change that. The only difference will be that rdm will become a viable alternative.

[noodles355]

I'd save accession for Aquaveil over Phalanx to be honest (For an Utsusemi tank of course). Yeah you got two charges but it's worthwhile saving one for emergancies. I suppose there is an argument for Phalanx2 but I prefer my merits elsewhere.

I would like to touch on Rog's argument about HP increases with levels. Someone stated a galka only got like 150HP going from 75 to 90, but Rog stated that you didn't take into account gear. You have to take gear into account gear, it's pretty stupid not to. After converting I now have to heal myself for about 300HP more at 90 than I did at 75.

There is an argument to be said for if you give Rdm C5 then people will make the mistake fo thinking it's the only worthwhile healing job. But personally I don't give woozles about what idiots who can't think for themselves think is the best or only job is available. All the bandwagon idiots used to think Sam was the only worthwhile DD. It wasn't. Same would happen here. All the bandwagon idiots might think rdm is the only worthwhile healer, but that doesn't make it true. Let bandwagon idiots be bandwagon idiots, make friends with non-retarded people and you won't have this problem.

Bigboy made a comment a few pages back about being preferred on Rdm over Whm because he has more trigger spells. Don't be idiotic. Every Trigger a rdm can do a blm can do too, and do more. Whm has triggers only a whm can do. Bringing a Rdm for a trigger job is a completely stupid idea.

Also Please stop saying a Rdm cures faster than Whm because it doesn't. Rdm caps casting time with AF Hat and Relic Body. Whm caps casting time with Rdm SJ, 5/5 Cure cast time merits (which every whm should have) and cure clogs.
If you think rdm can cure faster because of the recast time then you are again wrong. Rdm has one spell it can use, it has to wait 4 seconds with capped recast. Even excluding C6, Whm has 2 spells it can use (C5 and C4) back to back without having to wait on recast. Whm cures so much faster than Rdm and anyone who thinks otherwise just because rdm has fast cast traits is an idiot. If Rdm got C5 neither job would cure faster than the other. They would both have the same (capped) cast time, and they would both be able to alternate between two spells if recast time was an issue. Stop saying rdm cures faster. It just doesn't.

Rog was wrong on one point though, Whm doesn't get 3MP refresh in gear, it gets 6. (7 if you include Owleyes but I'd rather have my Terra's Staff)

[rog]

Rog was wrong on one point though, Whm doesn't get 3MP refresh in gear, it gets 6. (7 if you include Owleyes but I'd rather have my Terra's Staff)

Derp, forgot whm can use owleyes. Body, serpentes, and hairpin. Where is the other 3...?

[Supersun]

Derp, forgot whm can use owleyes. Body, serpentes, and hairpin. Where is the other 3...?

WotG earring would be 1.

Peist Cape?