Blood Pact Enhancement Stats Explained

[Okipuit]

Greetings!

We received some feedback asking for Blood Pact effects to scale in potency depending on the number of players in party (less players, stronger the effect), as they thought that the original effects were set the way they are now with a 6-person party in mind.

I figured now would be a good time to go ahead and pass on some information related to this to clear up any misconceptions about the way these stats were set.

The effects of a Blood Pact on an individual player have not been set based on the number of users around the Summoner, it is set based on how much of an effect the player should receive. The main merit for AoE type spells is MP efficiency, since the more users receive the buff, the less MP that needs to be spent.

With that said, there would not be any kind of trade-off when the effect is increased as the number of party members decreases. Similarly, there have also been requests to simply increase the effects of Blood Pacts as well as to change it into a single target effect. For the first request, the Blood Pact's effects has been set keeping similar spells in mind, so this aspect would need to be considered, and for the latter, if we were to make it single target, the effect may not be as powerful as everyone hopes for it to be.

[Alkar]

Honestly I think the main issue is that other jobs can cast the same buffs on party members but theirs not only are more powerful than Summoner's but also require less MP to cast.
One example would be SCH... Stoneskin is simply much better than Earten Ward.
I really don't see why Summoner shouldn't get more powerful buffs compared to other jobs. We need a pet out, we're on a 45 seconds timer that can't be reduced further and there's even a perpetuation cost on top of the actual cost of the Blood Pact itself (at least at lower levels when perpetuation gear is barely present). I think those limitations make sense if our buffs are actually powerful enough but when a SCH can do the same in a more efficient manner and with less limitations I don't see the point.
I know balance seems always the issue with Summoner but I think we've weak enough as it is, getting a better Stoneskin or Phalanx isn't gonna break the game. And possibly when cast on others not just while solo.

Edit: Yes, I'm aware that Earthen Ward lasts a lot longer than a normal Stoneskin but in a situation where an AoE Stoneskin is needed it won't stay up for the full duration anyway because it's there to absord AoE damage and after that you need to recast it. (And SCH can almost match the duration anyway)

[Ophannus]

SCH can AoE stoneskin but they also have their own limitations. (Light Arts has to be up, need to waste a strategem on Accession; recast is doubled with accession) also SMN is more versatile than SCH in terms of being able to AoE Stun, do considerable BP damage, Hastega, etc. So SMN isn't going to get any ridiculosuly strong enhancement bloodpacts(besides 2hr) since enhancing a party isnt the job's main focus(SMN is versatile, not a buff specialist like cors/brds). Usually if a job can fulfill multiple tasks/roles i.e SMN, the bufs they can use aren't the best. Yeah SCH has *slightly* less restrictions on AoE stoneskin but can they Hastega? Can they Stunga as well as Shocksquall? Can they do 1k+ damage to hard, magic resistant mobs? Can they AoE cure+remove status ailments simultaneously?

[Arcon]

Sometimes I feel I'm the only one who doesn't have a problem with SMN as it is. I certainly may be the only SMN who feels that way.

Some of our buffs are very to extremely useful (over 6min AoE Haste, Perfect Defense, Earthen Armor, Inferno Howl), which gives us a spot for various party-situations. Which we don't even need imo, because SMN already has two other uses: a) it's a very successful solo job for many situations and b) it can be used in combination with other pet jobs to take down almost any known mob in the game.

While I definitely wouldn't say no to new Blood Pacts, I don't feel that we need them to be able to play the game. It would just be something new to entertain me. If you want a SMN to become a buffer comparable to the level of a BRD, that's not gonna happen, ever. If you want SMN to become a DD that's even half as good as a mediocre THF, that's also not gonna happen, ever (although I wouldn't say no to it, as long as it doesn't exceed said mediocre THF in terms of DD capabilities). SMN has their niche, and I'm quite comfortable with it.

[Karbuncle]

Knowing darn well I'm going to come off offensive, I wanna just point out, I Don't hate any of you, in fact, I like most of you, I'm just passionate about Summoner, and about as tired as people saying "Its fine" as i am with people saying Thief or Red Mage are fine. So please go into this knowing that I'm not upset with any of you, I just do my best ranting when i'm well, Ranting.

------------------------------------

I don't mind buffs not scaling with people, Because it just sounds stupid as Sh*t. But as now, BP:Wards still need a buff across the board. I don't know why almost every single other Skill has effects on the magic it casts, rather accuracy or buff potency, and Summoning Magic is the key difference in that regard. When it was first out, Summoning magic didn't do jack or sh*t worth mentioning, It eventually helped Avatar Acc/Macc... I Just don't see any good reason it shouldn't apply to their buffs too.

I'm sorry, Being a mediocre pile of everything does not make the job good, Red Mage is a clear example of that. You can do 1k+ Damage on a Magic Resist mob? Good for you, So can a Half Nakid THF, in half the time, twice as often.

You can Stoneskin? So can every other job in the game if they sub SCH. on my SMN, as it stands, my Accession Stoneskin is MORE POWERFUL than my Bloodpact simply because the BP Doesn't scale, and I have access to decent Enhancing Magic and MND Gear.

The only unique AoE buff SMN Gets these days is Hastega, you can maybe count some of Diabolos/Fenrir Wards, But most of those can be mimic'd. I don't mind that Hastega can stay the same, But having 1 unique buff in an ocean of medciore buffs isn't really a good reason to keep the rest of the BP:Wards nerfed, considering despite all this "SCH CHARGES" crap - BP's are more limited. As at best, They're on 45 Second recasts, and If i'm not mistaken, Strategems are 30 seconds.

The only thing Summoner's are invited for these days are being a Proc Whore in VW, and Perfect Defense, If you're invited to anything else, the party leader is being polite and/or knows they can still win even while inviting a mediocre job. Because there's plenty of jobs that can do what you do, Better. Summoner has a lot of versatility, But its not enough in FFXI, not how we as a people play.

SMN Isn't so broken its on RDM's doorstep, But its only use is a 2hr and Procs, Which most jobs have, even SCH. that said, I'm not saying SCHRDMBLUETC Are perfect, But this isn't a SCH WHine thread, its a SMN Whine thread.

My ranting aside, All i want is lined out here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...t-this-new-cap

P.S - Who asked for Buffs to scale with the amount of players in the party? I should just start Google Translating my posts and put them in the JP Section, Maybe they'll get considered.

[Babekeke]

I don't know why almost every single other Skill has effects on the magic it casts, rather accuracy or buff potency, and Summoning Magic is the key difference in that regard. When it was first out, Summoning magic didn't do jack or sh*t worth mentioning, It eventually helped Avatar Acc/Macc... I Just don't see any good reason it shouldn't apply to their buffs too.

It increases duration. Warcry can last over 1:30, Hastega over 5:30, and Inferno Howl's potency IS actually affected by summoning magic skill, as well as it's duration.

Earthen ward isn't affecte4d by skill, but it does scale with level. At 99 it's 248 damage, but this IS also increased by all the 'enhances stoneskin' items; allowing one to recieve a max of 348 (yes those same items would make normal stoneskin 450).

[Karbuncle]

It increases duration. Warcry can last over 1:30, Hastega over 5:30, and Inferno Howl's potency IS actually affected by summoning magic skill, as well as it's duration.

Earthen ward isn't affecte4d by skill, but it does scale with level. At 99 it's 248 damage, but this IS also increased by all the 'enhances stoneskin' items; allowing one to recieve a max of 348 (yes those same items would make normal stoneskin 450).

Oops! I Forgot that too about Duration. Which is nice, Every skill point over cap gives you a duration buff up to a point... Then again, That buff was really to help it last about as long as normal buffs did. Most instances back before that, Our Buffs lasted significantly less than what others could put up, But it remained as was because well, It was AOE.

Second, Its nice to know it can go up to 350, Still a good chunk below what you can do on any other job as /SCH or SCH Main.

But thanks for the corrections anywho!

[Zhronne]

Premise: I'm not against what you said in this post I'm quoting or in THIS, just wanted to drop my two cents.

don't know why almost every single other Skill has effects on the magic it casts, rather accuracy or buff potency, and Summoning Magic is the key difference in that regard. When it was first out, Summoning magic didn't do jack or sh*t worth mentioning, It eventually helped Avatar Acc/Macc... I Just don't see any good reason it shouldn't apply to their buffs too.

Well it does?
It increases duration. If you recall the base lasting time was shit, now with a good summoning magic set you can get a lot of buffs over 180seconds which is good in my book.
For some BPs it also affects its strenght/potency.
Tbh the issue here, more than "fixing the job" as a hole, is about fixing a few blood pacts, making so their base stats are improved or scale better with summoning magic, or both things.
Earthen Ward is one of them, but there are definitely a couple more.
When you talk about "not having enough exclusive buffs" please remember that we're soon gonna get:
1) An additional Avatar, Caith Sith (with additional BPs! :P)
2) An additional 2hr Avatar (Atomos)
3) An additional 2hr JA (just like every other job)

I'm sorry, Being a mediocre pile of everything does not make the job good, Red Mage is a clear example of that. You can do 1k+ Damage on a Magic Resist mob? Good for you, So can a Half Nakid THF, in half the time, twice as often.

I don't want to say SMN is fine as it is, but in a game with 20+ jobs it's pretty clear you have to make so certain jobs are better/moreefficient than others. If you're too anal about getting all jobs being perfectly "balanced" in that regard, you run into the consequence of making all of them too similar/homogeneized.
It's bad saying this, especially when one of the jobs who's not among "the good ones" is one of your favourite, but in the long run it's a good thing for all of us.

They're on 45 Second recasts, and If i'm not mistaken, Strategems are 30 seconds.

Stratagems are on 48seconds recast after level 90.
I wish it were 30 at level 99!
I'd be fine with 48 seconds and 6 charges too probably.

The only thing Summoner's are invited for these days are being a Proc Whore in VW, and Perfect Defense

The same thing could be said about Scholar and Embrava, and back in the days for COR and Wild Card and overall many jobs have been in such a situation over the years.
At least SMN does have a reason for other people to invite them to PTs.
What should jobs like PUP or BST say in that regard? And other jobs as well.
SMN's situation may not be as good as other jobs, but it's not as bad as others either.


Also, SMN is still a powerful job when stacked together. Think about how many things can an Alliance of 18SMNs do if they want, but even less. Look at the new Limbus bosses, currently one of the easiest/mostefficient strategy is to spam SMNs at it.
Making SMN too powerful risks making SMN-stacking perhaps *too efficient*.
I'm sure SE knows this and that's why it's reluctant to buff SMN.

IN SPITE OF THIS I think some BPs should be fixed, like I mentioned above, and I also think the following things should be fixed

1. BP recast times: 45 is too much, allow us to stack gear up to 30 seconds please. We'd still be bound by MP limits, seeing what the average MP cost for a BP is, I think it would be a good balancment making the job more efficient without making it "too strong"
2. Fix the range of Avatar's Favour. AF is currently a very underestimated and powerful buff, but with such a short range it's hard to make good use of it, so almost nobody does which is a shame. "Potency" is fine as it is for most buffs, but something needs to be done about the range imho

[Karbuncle]

Premise: I'm not against what you said in this post I'm quoting or in THIS, just wanted to drop my two cents.

Good, Thats how i like it. Same rules of my first post apply too btw.

Well it does?
It increases duration.

Asked and Answered. Er well, 1 post up. I Corrected that lol. So i won't quote the rest.

When you talk about "not having enough exclusive buffs" please remember that we're soon gonna get:
1) An additional Avatar, Caith Sith (with additional BPs! :P)
2) An additional 2hr Avatar (Atomos)
3) An additional 2hr JA (just like every other job)

IDK, I don't like the idea of our uses being entirely 2hour. SCH has that problem too. As far as Cait sith buffs, I significantly doubt it'll be anything that makes the job useful, But i will hope a lot.

I don't want to say SMN is fine as it is, but in a game with 20+ jobs it's pretty clear you have to make so certain jobs are better/moreefficient than others. If you're too anal about getting all jobs being perfectly "balanced" in that regard, you run into the consequence of making all of them too similar/homogeneized.

It's bad saying this, especially when one of the jobs who's not among "the good ones" is one of your favourite, but in the long run it's a good thing for all of us.

I don't think SMN needs a Balancing, I think what it needs is to crawl out of the mediocrity it currently is. At the time being, Some jobs are Great/On the top (WAR, SAM, WHM), Some jobs are in the middle, (THF, MNK, DRK), and some jobs are just shit tier (SMN, RDM, DNC)

Those jobs in Shit tier need to be at least moved up to Mid Tier, I'm not asking them to be top tier, But mid tier. Buffing Summoner's BP:Wards will put them mid-tier, because at least then, Their buffs would be on par or comparible to other alternatives, making them not a "Well, They can do it all, but worse", but a "They seem about equal, So either or is fine". BP's are stiffed to 45 second recast, Stratagems for SCH/SCH Are on a tighter recast too. In a way, the balance system is already in place, Some of the BP's just need to be a tad more potent.

Even making Titan't stoneskin head up to about 300~ Would be a good middle ground. The Phalanx from Diabolos is what i really want buffed, and maybe some of Carbuncle's BPs.

Stratagems are on 48seconds recast after level 90.
I wish it were 30 at level 99!
I'd be fine with 48 seconds and 6 charges too probably.

How many charges do you have, was it 4 or 5?

The same thing could be said about Scholar and Embrava, and back in the days for COR and Wild Card and overall many jobs have been in such a situation over the years.
At least SMN does have a reason for other people to invite them to PTs.
What should jobs like PUP or BST say in that regard? And other jobs as well.
SMN's situation may not be as good as other jobs, but it's not as bad as others either.

You probably talked about this piece by piece, So I want to say I spelled this bellow, Its not "Whine about SCH Day" or "Whine about COR Day", its more "Whine about SMN" Day in this thread... Just because there's more than 1 job in the Shit Tier category doesn't mean it needs to stay there to keep the other shit tier jobs company.

They all need work!

Also, SMN is still a powerful job when stacked together. Think about how many things can an Alliance of 18SMNs do if they want, but even less. Look at the new Limbus bosses, currently one of the easiest/mostefficient strategy is to spam SMNs at it.

I think an Alliance of Most pet jobs can do what SMN can do, But I'd bet a BST alliance could do it better too. Even so, a Balanced Alliance of WARs and WHMs will do it better and quicker. That argument is really kinda lame, the only thing an Alliance of SMNs is good for is disposable pets, There's no fight that only an alliance of Summoner's can do, and thats where your argument would have water, if there were fights only SMNs could accomplish, But there aren't.

Any fight an Alliance of SMN's can do, An Alliance of a balance party can do better. Though I see your general point, Its just not a solid one.

Making SMN too powerful risks making SMN-stacking perhaps *too efficient*.
I'm sure SE knows this and that's why it's reluctant to buff SMN.

SMN's probably Is that it suffers from RDM Syndrome, Which you are diagnosing it with too, The fear that "If we do anything, It'll break the game" - Therefor, the job is stuck in mediocrity because of the fear it could break it. Avatars aren't horrible, and the job isn't useless per say, Its just its very subpar in all fields.

My suggestion isn't really, i guess, to buff it on par with WAR, but the whole "hateless DD" thing has really went out the window around 2007, the job needs some juice, and not just new toys that will ultimately add nothing to the job (I know I'm condemning them before i get them... but I'm not excited for Cait sith as he was described as Carbuncle 2)

IN SPITE OF THIS I think some BPs should be fixed, like I mentioned above, and I also think the following things should be fixed

1. BP recast times: 45 is too much, allow us to stack gear up to 30 seconds please. We'd still be bound by MP limits, seeing what the average MP cost for a BP is, I think it would be a good balancment making the job more efficient without making it "too strong"
2. Fix the range of Avatar's Favour. AF is currently a very underestimated and powerful buff, but with such a short range it's hard to make good use of it, so almost nobody does which is a shame. "Potency" is fine as it is for most buffs, but something needs to be done about the range imho

And I can agree with most if not all of this. However, I can personally say I'm not a fan of Avatar's Favor... Its a great buff, ad you're right, underestimated, I just wish it didn't have to nerf the summoner.

BRD Songs don't nerf the BRD
COR Rolls don't nerf the COR

I know its not a perfect comparison, but neither of them have to keep an avatar out, draining their resources, and Limiting their BP Choices, While actually having to build up buff potency to make it useful.

I just think there's far too many restrictions on Avatar's favor, I'd be happy just with the removal of the Pet Nerf to Damage, Since we already lack enough of that.

[Zhronne]

Even making Titan't stoneskin head up to about 300~ Would be a good middle ground. The Phalanx from Diabolos is what i really want buffed, and maybe some of Carbuncle's BPs.

I agree with that. Diabolos and Carbuncle Ward BPs need buffing, so does Earthen Ward.

How many charges do you have, was it 4 or 5?

Last update to stratagems comes at level 90. 5 charges, 48 seconds recast.
I was hoping for a new update at level 99 but alas nothing changed.
48 seconds is such a strange timer, makes the OCD in me unsatisfied! :P

Any fight an Alliance of SMN's can do, An Alliance of a balance party can do better. Though I see your general point, Its just not a solid one.

I see what you mean there.
About army of BSTs being better than SMN uh... I dunno. Guess it depends on the fight. BST pets are stronger as in they have more HP/defense/stats, but you also consume items which have a gil cost to summon them and to heal them, with SMN you just use a rechargeable resource (MP) to summon them as much as you want. Also, BP Rage from Avatars are usually much more powerful and spammable than Pet's TP moves.
I guess it depends on the kind of mob you're fighting of course, but overall I can agree with your statement.
I don't agree with the "anything an army of SMN can do, a normal alliance can do better". It's true for some fights, maybe the majority of fights, but it's not true for the kind of fights I was thinking of, for example the two new Limbus fights, where a small PTs of SMN has it much easier than a small (or even larger) pt with a normal setup.
Those mobs have very powerful AoE (or insta-death) which can be really dangerous for players or for pets, while SMNs do not have to worry about sacrificing their avatars.

And I can agree with most if not all of this. However, I can personally say I'm not a fan of Avatar's Favor... Its a great buff, ad you're right, underestimated, I just wish it didn't have to nerf the summoner.

BRD Songs don't nerf the BRD
COR Rolls don't nerf the COR

I know its not a perfect comparison, but neither of them have to keep an avatar out, draining their resources, and Limiting their BP Choices, While actually having to build up buff potency to make it useful.

Eh... it's hard to draw a balance line here.
I mean, Avatar's Favor needs to have a con, otherwise we would all keep it up 100% of the time, right?
It should be a situational thing.
Problem is that atm it's something NOBODY uses, despite the fact that in theory some of those buffs are pretty powerful. I think about Ramuh's critical rate or Ifrit's +24% DA, those are crazy buffs, up to the point it makes me wonder if those are real numbers or if someone played a nice trolling trick updating Wiki page.

AF was a good idea to promote among players a playstyle involving us to keep our avatars out instead of constantly summoning/dismissing our pets (which was the typical playstyle when they added AF), still *something* has to be done about it.
What? I have no clue. Increasing the range from 10yalms to 20yalms would be a good starting point I think.

As for the reduced stats on Avatar once you activate AF I think that honestly they have a lower impact than most people want to make it look like, or is it just me being completely wrong here?
Fighting less powerful stuff I hardly even notice it tbh, whereas on the tougher mobs of course you can clearly see it.