Relic and Empyrean jobs that can use them.

[Theytak]

Ok, since I have several hours to kill while I reinstall the test server client, let's consider this stuff:

To Cover:
- Thf vs Dnc, if Mandau (Neither rdm nor brd are really worth comparing here, the obvious issue is that they think dnc will dethrone thf)
- Rng vs Cor, if Annihilator
- Mnk vs Pup, if Spharai
- Pld vs Blu, if Excalibur (again, not worth comparing rdm numbers)
additionally, sch isn't worth the time, because lolschmelee, and lolclaustrum

Now, Thf vs Dnc is a fair argument, in that dnc, realistically, has a much larger supply of DD abilities, and, on paper, has a roughly equal, or even higher, damage potential. That said, with how intense reinstalling the test server is on my computer (seriously, 1.6~2GIG zip files?), I can't be bothered to math out the specifics, because of the lag, but I may later on.

Rng vs Cor, really, isn't a question of who can put out more damage; that is, unquestioningly, rng, due to the difference in abilities, as well as the still rather obnoxious gap in ammo (rng only ammo has much higher dmg than rng/cor ammo). In fact, level 99 Annihilator and level 99 Armageddon have exactly the same dmg (76) and delay (582) ratings, which means that Cor's quickdraw would gain no additional benefit from having Annihilator over Armageddon, nor would cor suddenly have access to a high damage weapon with a different TP return. Now, annihilator is the stronger gun for shooting, yes, because of the 40 r.acc, 30 r.atk, and perpetual Occasionally Deals Triple Damage, however, Coronach vs Wildfire is a very bizarre situation, because Coronach's strength isn't so much it's damage, as that it gives a set (and very low) amount of enmity, and the aftermath lowers enmity generation further. This is very powerful for rng, but really, these days, most cors who are playing DD are doing it with an Armageddon and riding wild fire, and they're not likely to pull more hate than a rng.

Next up, Mnk vs Pup. I've already explained this one a bit; Spharai is a very powerful weapon for mnk, and it would be very powerful for pup as well, but currently, pup is physically incapable of surpassing mnk's damage output in any melee damage situation, due to the way the job works. Spharai won't change that. Besides, Kenkonken would still be stronger for pup. Now, it is worth considering that Spharai is also a defensive weapon, to some degree (13% counter is rather nice, but it's no burtgang, that's a nearly pure defensive weapon), and final heaven is rather irrelevant because its aftermath is subtle blow+10, and anything worth fighting these days has stupid amounts of regain anyway. However, due to pup's evasion, it's not as able to take advantage of the 13% counter, and since it doesn't have any counter damage+ gear, a base counter rate, or much at all in the way of counter gear, it's not exactly a huge benefit for pup.

Finally, Pld vs Blu. Blu's gonna out damage pld, there's not really any question here, because pld's a tank, and blu's a DD. The only redeeming features on Excalibur are it's dmg rating, the 40 atk, OD2.5x, and Additional Effect. Knights of Round is absolute garbage, and the aftermath is a rather lackluster 10 HP/tick regen (which blu can easily beat with spells). Honestly, this poor weapon could really benefit from blu being able to use it; it's not like pld or rdm are actually able to use it to its full DD potential anyway. It's a little depressing, honestly.

Thus;

Annihilator and Spharai would need absolutely no change to their stats if cor and pup (respectively) were added, as it would not influence the damage gap between cor and rng or mnk and pup in any way, shape, or form.

Excalibur is really in desperate need of having a real DD job that can use it, because it's so sad to see such a potentially strong weapon (KoR aside) getting left behind simply because the only jobs that can use it are a tank and a mage.

Mandau, like excalibur, is a situation where yes, if the new job had it, it would likely be stronger than the old jobs. However, like excalibur, this has nothing to do with mandau itself; dnc is simply stronger than thf, brd, and rdm, in terms of DD (though with thf, it's always debatable and situational). Due to that, it really doesn't warrant a need for stat changes or weakening just to allow dnc to use it, that wouldn't suddenly change anything.

As for Ragnarok and Rune Fencer; Rune Fencer is going to be a tank. Tanks do not out damage DD jobs. This is a fact. There is no balance issue giving Rune Fencer access to Ragnarok, especially since it's intended to be the Premier Greatsword job.

For the matter of Sch and Geomancer, they're MAGE JOBS. Back line jobs. They don't melee. How in the world would having access to Claustrum (or in geomancer's case, possibly Mjollnir) suddenly change this? It wouldn't. They don't/won't have access to the gear and abilities required to make melee work. It's really rather silly to even consider it an issue.

thus; SE's logic is absolutely flawed, and they're giving us a cop out answer saying "but we balanced it around the first 15, it'd be unbalanced if we added new jobs" because no, it absolutely would not. Nothing would change, except that the jobs currently not able to use relic weapons would now have them as an option.

Q.E.D.

[Kojo]

Theytak just put into words what I'd screw up if I tried to do the same. Agreed 100%.

[Zhronne]

Stringing Pummel is about the same level of power as Victory Smite

Thought it was slightly behind, but yeah they're more or less the same
Actually the tests where SP was a bit behind have been done with the "old" Vsmite. They lowered the crit rate now so you're probably right actually.
But even before the difference was very small anyway. Spummel is a fookin awesome WS and we've always known that ,

Even if we had access to spharai, we'd still never out damage a mnk in zerg situations

Well yeah. Altough -delay makes little difference when you reach the attack rate cap I guess.
But still, we have lower skill, worse gear options blah blah.
Which is especially why the attack on Spharai would be helpful imho, not forgetting the base weapon damage.
Tbh that's what I was thinking of mainly when I said Spharai would be an awesome weapon for PUP, imho better than Verethragna.
Didn't even think about the Counter thing but yeah, that would be an additional nice thing that, honestly, would hardly make a difference, just like you said <3
Another aspect to consider in Relic vs Empyreal for the average player is that you can easily bring Relic to 95, whereas Empyreal is much more likely to stay at 90. Of course this isn't even a variable to consider for "pro" players, I suppose.

Now get me a KKK Theytak <3<3<3

[Theytak]

Thought it was slightly behind, but yeah they're more or less the same
Actually the tests where SP was a bit behind have been done with the "old" Vsmite. They lowered the crit rate now so you're probably right actually.
But even before the difference was very small anyway. Spummel is a fookin awesome WS and we've always known that ,


Well yeah. Altough -delay makes little difference when you reach the attack rate cap I guess.
But still, we have lower skill, worse gear options blah blah.
Which is especially why the attack on Spharai would be helpful imho, not forgetting the base weapon damage.
Tbh that's what I was thinking of mainly when I said Spharai would be an awesome weapon for PUP, imho better than Verethragna.
Didn't even think about the Counter thing but yeah, that would be an additional nice thing that, honestly, would hardly make a difference, just like you said <3
Another aspect to consider in Relic vs Empyreal for the average player is that you can easily bring Relic to 95, whereas Empyreal is much more likely to stay at 90. Of course this isn't even a variable to consider for "pro" players, I suppose.

Now get me a KKK Theytak <3<3<3

VS was slightly ahead against higher def mobs initially, before the nerf, but now SP has a significant advantage in crit rate at 100%, which gives it the slight edge. As for KKK, at delay cap, the reason they're amazing lies in the 30% boost to SP damage, and situationally, intelligent use of AM3. And no, if I get my hands on them, they're mine. You keep your grubby little paws off. Mine.

[Nala]

While we understand that you (SE) grasp the game from a programming standpoint and understand the game as a whole...... on paper. What a vast majority of the player base questions is, do any of you actually play the game?
To further clarify that, do any of you actually play the game as freethinking individuals seeking character growth? We want to know if anyone that has any part in the design process there actually plays the game as a game player would in it's current state.
You claim to understand the game when clearly you only understand the concept of the game and not the game itself.

This so much... about the only advantage i could see cor gaining is the racc and attack coupled with the 3x proc which is nice but not overwhelming not to mention that cor does not get access to high tier ammo.

Also given that most cor's tend to supplement their TP gain via quick draw the additional stats and hidden effects of the annihilator provide only a marginal boost at the lost of stats relevant to QD itself (aka the agi on armagedeon)

The only other advantage a relic has over an empyrean is the fact that you can easily make a 95 after the currency stage VS your own cock block of 95 trial on empy's 1500 HMP.

Can the dev team please come up with a VERY logical and technical counter point to anything i've just said? i'd wager my own annihilator (if i could give it away) that you cannot because there is no counter.

Ok, since I have several hours to kill while I reinstall the test server client, let's consider this stuff:

To Cover:
- Thf vs Dnc, if Mandau (Neither rdm nor brd are really worth comparing here, the obvious issue is that they think dnc will dethrone thf)
- Rng vs Cor, if Annihilator
- Mnk vs Pup, if Spharai
- Pld vs Blu, if Excalibur (again, not worth comparing rdm numbers)
additionally, sch isn't worth the time, because lolschmelee, and lolclaustrum

Now, Thf vs Dnc is a fair argument, in that dnc, realistically, has a much larger supply of DD abilities, and, on paper, has a roughly equal, or even higher, damage potential. That said, with how intense reinstalling the test server is on my computer (seriously, 1.6~2GIG zip files?), I can't be bothered to math out the specifics, because of the lag, but I may later on.

Rng vs Cor, really, isn't a question of who can put out more damage; that is, unquestioningly, rng, due to the difference in abilities, as well as the still rather obnoxious gap in ammo (rng only ammo has much higher dmg than rng/cor ammo). In fact, level 99 Annihilator and level 99 Armageddon have exactly the same dmg (76) and delay (582) ratings, which means that Cor's quickdraw would gain no additional benefit from having Annihilator over Armageddon, nor would cor suddenly have access to a high damage weapon with a different TP return. Now, annihilator is the stronger gun for shooting, yes, because of the 40 r.acc, 30 r.atk, and perpetual Occasionally Deals Triple Damage, however, Coronach vs Wildfire is a very bizarre situation, because Coronach's strength isn't so much it's damage, as that it gives a set (and very low) amount of enmity, and the aftermath lowers enmity generation further. This is very powerful for rng, but really, these days, most cors who are playing DD are doing it with an Armageddon and riding wild fire, and they're not likely to pull more hate than a rng.

Next up, Mnk vs Pup. I've already explained this one a bit; Spharai is a very powerful weapon for mnk, and it would be very powerful for pup as well, but currently, pup is physically incapable of surpassing mnk's damage output in any melee damage situation, due to the way the job works. Spharai won't change that. Besides, Kenkonken would still be stronger for pup. Now, it is worth considering that Spharai is also a defensive weapon, to some degree (13% counter is rather nice, but it's no burtgang, that's a nearly pure defensive weapon), and final heaven is rather irrelevant because its aftermath is subtle blow+10, and anything worth fighting these days has stupid amounts of regain anyway. However, due to pup's evasion, it's not as able to take advantage of the 13% counter, and since it doesn't have any counter damage+ gear, a base counter rate, or much at all in the way of counter gear, it's not exactly a huge benefit for pup.

Finally, Pld vs Blu. Blu's gonna out damage pld, there's not really any question here, because pld's a tank, and blu's a DD. The only redeeming features on Excalibur are it's dmg rating, the 40 atk, OD2.5x, and Additional Effect. Knights of Round is absolute garbage, and the aftermath is a rather lackluster 10 HP/tick regen (which blu can easily beat with spells). Honestly, this poor weapon could really benefit from blu being able to use it; it's not like pld or rdm are actually able to use it to its full DD potential anyway. It's a little depressing, honestly.

Thus;

Annihilator and Spharai would need absolutely no change to their stats if cor and pup (respectively) were added, as it would not influence the damage gap between cor and rng or mnk and pup in any way, shape, or form.

Excalibur is really in desperate need of having a real DD job that can use it, because it's so sad to see such a potentially strong weapon (KoR aside) getting left behind simply because the only jobs that can use it are a tank and a mage.

Mandau, like excalibur, is a situation where yes, if the new job had it, it would likely be stronger than the old jobs. However, like excalibur, this has nothing to do with mandau itself; dnc is simply stronger than thf, brd, and rdm, in terms of DD (though with thf, it's always debatable and situational). Due to that, it really doesn't warrant a need for stat changes or weakening just to allow dnc to use it, that wouldn't suddenly change anything.

As for Ragnarok and Rune Fencer; Rune Fencer is going to be a tank. Tanks do not out damage DD jobs. This is a fact. There is no balance issue giving Rune Fencer access to Ragnarok, especially since it's intended to be the Premier Greatsword job.

For the matter of Sch and Geomancer, they're MAGE JOBS. Back line jobs. They don't melee. How in the world would having access to Claustrum (or in geomancer's case, possibly Mjollnir) suddenly change this? It wouldn't. They don't/won't have access to the gear and abilities required to make melee work. It's really rather silly to even consider it an issue.

thus; SE's logic is absolutely flawed, and they're giving us a cop out answer saying "but we balanced it around the first 15, it'd be unbalanced if we added new jobs" because no, it absolutely would not. Nothing would change, except that the jobs currently not able to use relic weapons would now have them as an option.

Q.E.D.

Meh some one said it already in far greater detail and covering all the important points... rather well put, even if i do not always agree with you (in my head do not think i've actually posted contrary to you)

quoted just because i needs to be read.

.

[Economizer]

Whm's got a lot of unique shit, like cure skin, respectable light damage nukes (due to solace), an untouchable throne as the best healer in the game, stupid amounts of mp efficiency, lots of unique party buffs (auspice, pro/shell -ra lines, boost- line, which is unique from rdm because rdm is self-only), as well as all one of rdm's new, unique debuffs (addle). Whm is the strongest healer, the strongest magical buffer outside of embrava, and the strongest mage physically (ie: ability to melee). WHM is sitting on Mary Sue levels of "unique and special" and it really wouldn't suffer at all if it lost some of that. Sorry, econ, I like you, and I think you're a very intelligent guy, but whm is just a little OP right now. They have no place to be bitching about losing one of their many unique/special toys.

The unique thing was only part of the points given really, so regardless of whether it holds merit (and it certainly does hold a lot of strength in the hearts of a lot of White Mages who like the ability to melee), the bigger issue at hand here is that Scholar basically only uses TWO hammers, and one of them is an all jobs weapon. If this was a Relic Wand, I might even be promptly defeated in a puff of logic, but this thing is the Relic Hammer.

I could give a lengthy explanation for why White Mage is not infact overpowered - and most of it would be explaining the way Cure III/IV function and healing in general, and even a bit of comparison to some very powerful jobs, but ultimately much of this goes to flavor of the game as well, such as the compelling sounding arguments people are making for some other relics not necessarily making sense to share in certain cases.

We'll come to Geomancer arguments when we see them, assuming the job itself is very club oriented and uses lots of hammers. Of course, before we ever see it on the Relic, I'd expect to see it on the Empyrean weapon, and the respective Magian trials. Gambanteinn, for example, would probably better serve a job that doesn't have Mystic Boon and Curaga. If Geomancer is infact a club job but doesn't use hammers, I'd imagine it would still deserve Gambanteinn since it isn't strictly a hammer style club despite the damage ratings on it. But for all we know it can be another Staff job like Scholar, it is hard to say at this point.

While I'm more willing to take SE on their opinions with the Relics (maybe with a push for a few new ones like a wand/knife/and a few throwing slot items), I'm thinking that the Empyrean weapons would be more suited to new jobs more blindly in general.

It's still hard to say though, although this is a collaborative vision because of the nature of FFXI, they still have yet to tell us the complete picture on their part of the story on these new jobs.

[SpankWustler]

In addition to the aforementioned reason, in order to make it possible for these jobs to equip relic weapons, we would have to make changes to the current stats on relic weapons, and since this would affect other jobs as well it is not such a simple thing to do. This doesn't just pertain to only adjustments, the same can be said for if we were to add new weapons, as they would affect currently existing items.

Maybe I picked from the same mushroom patch as the Development Bros this morning, because I get a feeling this is referring to weapon type rather than any bonuses on the weapons. Just the damage and the delay and nothing else. This sounds ridiculous, but it's how the Development Bros roll sometimes.

In some cases, like Mjollinir being a goofy-looking-hammer or Spharai being "heavier" than anything Puppetmaster usually uses, the relics are a certain weapon type that comes with a certain damage and delay that's unique to that sub-type of weapon. I could understand reservations about giving Puppermaster a weapon with significantly different damage and delay compared to what the job usually uses.

I think those reservations are unfounded based on anything related to math or numbers or logic or stuff that players like, but, I get that those reservations would exist.

But, that leaves another conundrum. Mandau and Twashtar are exactly the same type of dagger, going by the delay. Claustrum and Hvergilmir are exactly the same type of staff, going by the delay.Anhilator and Armageddon have exactly the same damage and delay! I can go on, but those were the high points just now.

So, I've just made myself even more confused with my guess just now.

Could you please give us an example of how a weapon would need to be changed if a post-Treasures of Aht Urhgan job were added to it?

Whatever metric the Development Bros are using, it is not a metric that we Player Bros can figure out. Nothing mathematical points to more jobs on current weapons breaking anything, or even changing anything at all outside of the Puppetmaster and Spharai example.

[Theytak]

I thought about the weapon type idea, and it made sense for blu and pup. Until Trials of the Magians took it and through weapon types out the window. Dnc has always been able to use parrying knives (mandau's type), and there's not much rhyme/reason to which non-hexagun guns cor can/cannot use.

[Economizer]

Until Trials of the Magians took it and through weapon types out the window.

Kinda reminds me of my suggestions to get BLU and maybe even PLD on the non-Empyrean Magian Clubs just like WHM/RDM/BRD are on the Staff weapons, although this was when BLU still had a drought on new wands.

I thought about the weapon type idea, and it made sense for blu and pup.

Still, we shouldn't go around letting a handful of screwups mess up the carefully and meticulously constructed world we have. While Blue Mage is arguably on a bunch of non-curvy Swords even early on, how many... whatever Puppetmaster doesn't use usually does it end up on?

Maybe this leads room for a bunch of silly Relics-style things (and who knows if they'd be in Dynamis or somewhere else) in the style of the Relic Horn - a Relic Attachment/Frame/Animator (PUP), a Relic Chakram (BLU/DNC, and give BLU some freaking throwing skill), a Relic Grimmore (SCH), and maybe a few more. Of course, we can still evaluate putting certain jobs on weapons that make sense for them, like arguing for Scholar on Claustrum, or maybe Runic Knight on Ragnarok, but a few mistakes in job labeling shouldn't throw away years of work making a cohesive world.

[Theytak]

Kinda reminds me of my suggestions to get BLU and maybe even PLD on the non-Empyrean Magian Clubs just like WHM/RDM/BRD are on the Staff weapons, although this was when BLU still had a drought on new wands.



Still, we shouldn't go around letting a handful of screwups mess up the carefully and meticulously constructed world we have. While Blue Mage is arguably on a bunch of non-curvy Swords even early on, how many... whatever Puppetmaster doesn't use usually does it end up on?

Maybe this leads room for a bunch of silly Relics-style things (and who knows if they'd be in Dynamis or somewhere else) in the style of the Relic Horn - a Relic Attachment/Frame/Animator (PUP), a Relic Chakram (BLU/DNC, and give BLU some freaking throwing skill), a Relic Grimmore (SCH), and maybe a few more. Of course, we can still evaluate putting certain jobs on weapons that make sense for them, like arguing for Scholar on Claustrum, or maybe Runic Knight on Ragnarok, but a few mistakes in job labeling shouldn't throw away years of work making a cohesive world.

Based on progression, these would be the stats on the Relic Animator:

Ghatsad's Animator:
Allows the use of Maneuver abilities
Hidden effect: DEX+8