Cure IV (conserve MP)

[Spiritreaver]

I might be wrong since I haven't bothered to test this since the healing skill update, but I don't think it affected puppets at all similar to BLU healing spells. As Spiritreaver said, MP efficiency is a non issue for PUP. I suppose if you're missing key attachments you could have issues. And anyone who's leveled PUP recently likely is missing some considering many of them are upwards of 2 mil, at least on Siren.

Economizer is nice, but not essential imo. A player can do just as well with the proper use of Mana Converter and oils.

1)Can't you just deactivate/activate to reset mp on your automaton? I suppose there are situations where that's not convenient to do, but most of the times it's doable.

2)Altough I agree it would have been better if Spiritreaver Soulsoother could have made a smarter use of cure spells, didn't want to whine back in the march update because I was so happy about the new stuff, but I always found it particularly stupid that it never uses cures under V unless it has not enough mp for it (in which case, it uses IV or III or whatever else)

@1-With the addition of Deus Ex Automata, any time i am sort of idling, i will DAD whenever Activate recast is set. No reason to be a slave to that timer anymore at all.

@2-I agree here as well. Though i think you meant Soulsoother

[Zhronne]

I meant soulsoother of course, sorry

[Theytak]

Why bother?

Just want to know, because(for me at least) automaton MP is pretty much a non-issue. And has been such for years at this point.

And don't get me wrong, you want to push for the change, go for it imo. It won't harm anything. Just wondering why bother is all.

Imo, the only real issue is situations where you can't readily, easily, or safely, use deactivate/activate to refill. Anywhere AoE heavy, it's fairly risky to run around with your activate timer always down, and it's not really cost effective to just ride deus and repair. That's mostly just convenience stuff.

The real problem is in situations like, say, soloing some of the tougher NMs. In abyssea, even with MM and other strong solo atma, appropriate gear, and being able to keep your puppet outside of aoe range, there are some NMs that can, and do, drain soulsoother's MP to the point that MM alone can't keep up, and even with mana converter, it's rough, but you can't deactivate because the reason you're an MP sponge is due to the mob being AoE heavy and making shadows/evasion completely irrelevant, which makes reactivating a real bitch.

Then, there's also the issue that it's just stupid that our automatons have the MP efficiency of an 04 valkurm dunes whm. Especially since my soothing healer npc won't waste mp on cure V when cure III will suffice... It's pretty much just SE being lazy and pups being able to work around their complete laziness.

Howdy puppetmasters!


At higher levels, automatons will only choose to use Cure V or VI once damage is taken and this decision is not based on the amount of damage taken. This has been the way automatons function since the adjustments that took place during the March version update.

If you would like your automaton to use a specific Cure based on the amount of damage you take, it’s possible to do so by utilizing a light maneuver while using the Damage Gauge attachment.

But why is this the case? It can't be that difficult to make the Healing focused pet at least somewhat competent at one of the most important aspects of healing. Especially since outside of abyssea, pup doesn't even have the HP to warrant a cure V most of the time; one cure V from caroline can take me from ~45% HP to full, and I'm a galka. Consistently letting myself get down to orange/red HP in order to get an appropriate cure is an absolutely terrible system. I realize that's how wyvern healing works, but drgs have almost no control over their pets, relative to pups, so I don't see how it's even remotely sensible to have scaley winged rats be more intelligent in regards to healing than a robot programmed purely for the function of being a whm...

Can't you just deactivate/activate to reset mp on your automaton? I suppose there are situations where that's not convenient to do, but most of the times it's doable.

Altough I agree it would have been better if Spiritreaver could have made a smarter use of cure spells, didn't want to whine back in the march update because I was so happy about the new stuff, but I always found it particularly stupid that it never uses cures under V unless it has not enough mp for it (in which case, it uses IV or III or whatever else)

Honestly, the most annoying part of it all to me is how much the insistence on over curing hurts mana converter's efficiency. SW has 1100~1200 HP, and mana converter takes half of that, so 550~600, and then triggers cure VI, which cuts 227 MP out of that gain. even with power cooler, it's still going to be ~200 mp cut out of the ~600 mp gain. Before the update, Soulsoother would at least sometimes randomly cast cure IV instead of Cure V/VI to heal itself after converting, which was awesome, but now that little boon is gone. Why?

I mean, yes, we have the ability to use Stormwaker instead of Soulsoother, but stormwaker is just as bad, if not even worse, because we can't tell it to not nuke while deployed, and nukes eat up MP so much faster than cure VI that it completely negates the benefit.

Also, while on the subject, what ever happened to fixing soulsoother being able to heal sleep (read: cast cure I)? It tried to heal sleep initially, but used erase, which obviously doesn't work, and instead of simply changing the spell it chose in response to sleep, it was returned to completely ignoring sleep outright...

[Kysaiana]

I miss when eraser removed sleep... Anyway, maybe it's just me, but when I'm soloing with Soulsoother and it uses mana converter, it will usually cast cure V to heal itself... and then that won't be enough to actually heal it to 100% HP, but this is usually in dynamis where it's perma-dark weather. It could be because I don't use either of the auto-repair kits on Soulsoother, and it won't trigger cure VI because of the lower HP.

I'm not really positive casting cure IV would be that useful for Soulsoother unless you ride 3 light maneuvers all the time. And even then, you'd have to swap in AF pants every time it cures you to hit the cure potency cap. Just my opinion, but I'd rather my puppet over cure than under cure to save a few MP.

[Dohati]

ever since the update on automaton spellcasting AI and recast timer, using a light maneuver with the damage gauge just makes your puppet spam so hard they're out of mp in like a minute tops. i'll take 1 hit and get a cure5. i used to ride light maneuver + damage gauge constantly before the AI revamp, but now i have to try avoiding light maneuver period unless my HP gets so low that i have to have a cure like RIGHT NOW. sure, there's deactivate, but if your puppet is out of MP and hurt, and activate is down, you're screwed. i'd actually appreciate if they'd also allow cures 1-3 without low MP.

[Mercilessturtle]

Why bother?

Because the current behaviour of dumping cure6 at you when a cure4 would do is incredibly dumb? Because "just DAD" is only useful if you are only ever fighting stuff with no aoes? There is no reason automaton AI bugs that are this trivial to fix should persist because "it doesn't affect me". It affects a lot of people, even something trivial like diaga will screw you on DAD.

[Spiritreaver]

In general:

Not at all sorry about my view on this. I seriously consider it in the same vein as worrying about delay from using manuvers or the ongoing crusade by some to have Asuran Fists on PUP 'just because'. We all know how SE operates by now in regards to PUP and if having to pay attention to auto MP and actively work to keep MP up(just like mages have to incidentally) is one of the last areas where the job is struggling? That is fine by me, especially after the MASSIVE AI overhaul automatons recently got.

Now that said, by all means ask away for that stuff from SE. If your requests are granted, sweet; i'll adapt to them. If they aren't? No skin off my nose, i'll keep on doing what i'm doing.


@ the following in particular:

Because the current behaviour of dumping cure6 at you when a cure4 would do is incredibly dumb? Because "just DAD" is only useful if you are only ever fighting stuff with no aoes? There is no reason automaton AI bugs that are this trivial to fix should persist because "it doesn't affect me". It affects a lot of people, even something trivial like diaga will screw you on DAD.

I spent so many years dying because Klaxon felt the need to -na me instead of give me ANY cure. So my personal view on being able to force my little buddy to cure me at all, is very forgiving of what cure he uses. Its just another case of different strokes for different folks.

Two Cure 4's for 176mp(88x2) or one Cure 5(135mp) or one Cure 6(227mp); as long as i'm getting the bleedin' cure when i NEED the bleedin' cure, i couldn't be assed sweating which one Klaxon lays on me. That's me though of course, i'm easy.

As to not fighting stuff with no AOEs, is that somehow a bad thing? If i'm about to do an activity ingame and i know upfront that it is going to be AOE heavy, as much as i love PUP-its not gonna be my first choice. If others only have the one option of PUP for everything, i feel a bit for them-but ultimately its on them to diversify their available jobs.


That's about all i have to say on it. Feel free to lay into me as needed. Not the first or last time my view on something ingame isn't the more popular one.

[Mercilessturtle]

That's me though of course, i'm easy.

Yeah, we already got that. Which is why I said "just because you don't care, doesn't mean it doesn't matter". It is wonderful for you that you love pup being the worst job in the game bar none. But not everyone else thinks that is awesome. You don't need to re-state over and over how much you love having pup be crappy. We get it. We're not going to suddenly decide we're ok with it too just because you say it a lot.

As to not fighting stuff with no AOEs, is that somehow a bad thing?

Yes. How pathetic is it that you actually think "just don't fight anything that has any aoe moves ever" is reasonable? Or that you think "well it at least casts cure now" is acceptable? Just because pup was even worse before, doesn't mean it is ok still being a completely useless job. Oh thank you for beating me with a whip instead of a chain oh glorious SE master, it feels so good! Pup not being your first choice is the whole point. Pup is never the first choice for anything. Or the second, or third. It is always the 20th choice for anything. That should be something to fix, not something to be thankful about.

[Spiritreaver]

Yeah, we already got that. Which is why I said "just because you don't care, doesn't mean it doesn't matter". 1)It is wonderful for you that you love pup being the worst job in the game bar none. But not everyone else thinks that is awesome. You don't need to re-state over and over how much you love having pup be crappy. We get it. We're not going to suddenly decide we're ok with it too just because you say it a lot.



2)Yes. How pathetic is it that you actually think "just don't fight anything that has any aoe moves ever" is reasonable? Or that you think "well it at least casts cure now" is acceptable? Just because pup was even worse before, doesn't mean it is ok still being a completely useless job. Oh thank you for beating me with a whip instead of a chain oh glorious SE master, it feels so good! Pup not being your first choice is the whole point. Pup is never the first choice for anything. Or the second, or third. It is always the 20th choice for anything. That should be something to fix, not something to be thankful about.

Pardon me, but while i'm happy you have a zeal for PUP, might i suggest slow your roll.

If i didn't care about the job, i would have quit it years back. I think you have, in my case at least, confused my opinion on which points of the job are 'in dire need of help' and which 'would be nice if they were adjusted', with me not caring.

@1-PUP is by no means the worst job in the game atm. It hasn't held that dubious honor in quite some time imo. And that is in great part due to the PUP community in general. How we actually test things, discuss them, and move forward. Having differences of opinions i think have done more good than ill for the job over time. Like i said, my opinion on this is in the minority, but if it helps a change be made, or not; so much the better.

Also, 'best' and 'worst' are so subjective now in FFXI as to be meaningless almost to the point its just silly.

Not good in say Abyssea means what? Not many procs? Well in that case throw in all jobs that aren't NIN, WAR, MNK, WHM or BLM. That's alot of jobs pulling for last place their, 15 now-17 in some months.

Bad in VW? My Stringing Pummels on PUP are at least average to the other WSs going off willy-nilly in this event. Not forgetting that my little Klaxon if a hint finding machine for weakness. But i spend most of the fights not DD'ing like i'me invited for-its spent keeping Klaxon up. But that is a pet-job problem there, not PUP specific

And i could list many more subjective instances, but you get the point there.

@2-PUP should be, first and foremost, a job you like playing. After that, everything else is gravy. That said, i find that long-time PUPs are more realistic idea about what they want and expect of the job than newer PUPs.

I've gone PUP to quite a few events: Salvage, Nyzul the 1st, Ein, Limbus, Dynamis the 1st, Sky, Sea, Voidwatch, Abyssea, and others that i just don't feel like typing. I've also gone as other jobs to the same events and i can honestly say the job performed very well, even before the recent overhaul. But i'm not going to delude myself and say that PUP was the absolute bestest job i could have gone to something as. The job is a hybrid, and by its very nature it is SUPPOSED to be good at alot of things but not the best at that many.

So does that mean i shouldn't take PUP to an AOE-fest like VW? Not at all. What it does mean is i should use the good common sense God gave a cat to bring a job that i don't have to spend the better part of the fight trying to keep half my job from disappearing.

Or i should always ditch PUP on a seal run in Abyssea? No, i can build lights easily and work TE. But i know up front on the proc front i won't be setting the world on fire.

I suggest you go to Alla and read the post in the PUP forum there Madame Jinte wrote to another up and coming PUP that also thinks forcing square pegs into round holes is a good way to go 100% of the time. She is much more technical and thorough than i could ever want to be.

__________________

All that said, let us get right to it:

Why don't you, after you've been a PUP for more than a hot minute, come back and then we can have an actual discourse on stuff-PUP. And in the meantime, you can be working on that problematical issue you seem to have of flying off the handle when someone has valid opinions(not popular, but yes valid) based on years' worth of both hands-on and observed experience.

I mean i'm the first one to call out dumb ideas(well ideas i think are stupid anyways), but i never question someones right to have them.

Here is a topic we can get into when you are ready: What's really needed next for PUP in terms of job betterment since the main three issues(in no real order: 1.Activate recast-remedied by Deus Ex Automata, 2.Gear selection-remedied by decent selection at high lvl now and the fact ppl make cap so fast now, and 3.-Na's over Cures-remedied by the recent AI overhaul) its had for years, are all now just history?

or you can just go back to berating me, i did chuckle at the whips bit tho.

However you like tho really, because i get the feeling that after your current enthusiasm over the job wanes and you move to the next thing, i'll still be here playing it.

[Mercilessturtle]

Yes, look at how hard you don't care. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have said anything in the first place, much less posted huge rambling walls of text that amount to nothing more than "the job isn't bad because I have no idea how the game works". Your post couldn't be any more stereotypical of a delusional garbage-job special snowflake. You are not special because you are happy with a bad job. People who would like the job to not suck are not pretenders or posers. If you can't make a valid point and have to resort to "in my imaginary fantasy world I have been a pup longer than you", then you are better off simply keeping it to yourself. If you have an actual argument as to why obvious bugs shouldn't be fixed, then present it. If you don't care, then don't argue against it.

1. Pup is terrible. It is the least popular job, and the least useful job. There is literally nothing in the game that pup excels at. Every single thing you could possibly do, another job can do better.

2. Making pup better will not stop it from being fun. Fun and useful are not mutually exclusive.