Nyzul Isle Assault Bug

[Kitkat]

Can't do that if the data suggests there is nothing in need of fixing because people are fluffing it with unreliable data showing it isn't that hard because they remove an unknown variable turning it into a constant known value (ie: remove the random order of lamps via dat swaps making it a known order). There are people who complete the event through legit means so this only makes it harder to do so, but not impossible.

Think by "fluffing the data" Kyomi means that they are making it where SE can't reliably establish how difficult it is for even well geared players without doing the following:

I've suggested it in other thread but i'll reiterate my suggestion :

@ SE devs :

1) record all F100 nyzul wins since release.
2) out of those wins, check how many of those runs had a lamp order floor.
3) examine the % of those runs where people went 1/1 on guessing lamps.

If you don't find 99%+ or more plese let me now.

I know that NIU isn't impossible as I know a couple groups who complete it under legit means, but they also run into many of the issues that make it extremely difficult to complete. This is the core data that needs to be recorded along with all the rest without the issue of altered/fluff data making it seem perfectly viable on an acceptable scale to complete NIU. This is how using the dat swaps becomes harmful and creates "victims" because it relays the message that the difficulty is sufficiently acceptable and requires no further changes.

With dat swaps you have:
Possible pathos restrictions (one of largest time killers based on pathos and floor you get it on)
Kill all floors (2nd largest time killer depending on number of mobs/NM type)
Kill spec family. (tied 3rd with don't be discovered by gears)
Kill Spec enemy. (negligible, you kill one mob)
Kill boss. (not a major time killer as most can be disposed of in less than a 1-3 minutes of being engaged)
Always known lamp order floors (removes a percentage of the difficulty by a fair amount since this is one of two largest time killers in the entire event; one floor can literally destroy 5min or more)
Lamp register. (negligible, you all click one lamp)
Don't be discovered by gears. (3rd due to possible penalty of time loss if aggro or locking of WS/Spells)
Don't destroy gears. (negligible, not hard to not kill)
Random floor skip of 3~12 (Primary time killer if unlucky)

So, when you fluff data on one of the biggest time killers in the entire event you relay the message to developers that there is no further need to adjust the difficulty because X amount of players are already 5/15~15/15 in only the space of a month or two. Look how long it took for SE to admit there was a significant issue with distribution of VW drops because people with the items were getting them multiple times and could not give them to other players. Granted this is still an issue with a handful of the desired items, but no longer with some of the most desired items (HQ weapons, Most bodies), not to mention adjustments to AOE damage taken to players without primary hate, etc. VW is much easier and distribution of the items has increased due to data collection and feedback via the community, but it took time to do so.

Applying it to NIU becomes problematic when you can't prove via data that the successful progress made by the community is extremely low when cheaters fluff the data by showing that it isn't extremely low. Every run they are getting 1 promised drop of choice, and up to 3 additional random by completing floor 100 at greater than 50% of the runs cause they spend less than 1 minute on lamp floors. If they get multiple lamp floors this can make the run fairly smooth since they can always get the right order every time. What this says to developers is that they made it just right and no further tweaks are necessary because groups who do the event regularly are making acceptable progress when that isn't the case when played legitimately.

@Frank
When you look at the gear and the difficulty to achieve it while comparing it to the low drop rate of even VW gear/abj which is up on the same level of desirability it does make sense that it isn't easy to accomplish. However, allowing cheaters free reign to do as they please because it seemingly "hurts no one else" is no better a fix than stopping/reprimanding the cheaters after being caught. The cheaters will then do 1 of 2 things, stop doing the event because they got what they want, or turn around and turn it into a cash cow because other players can't cheat, or don't have the resource/time to do the event. Already see groups shout for it on my server and charge upwards of 10-15mil per piece of gear. So no, I don't see any viable reason to just "leave the cheaters to cheat" because it has too many noticeable affects on the community when one takes the time to look beyond themselves to see it.

[kyomi]

Never said it wasn't hard saevel, only that it wasn't impossible. Don't over blow what I said.

[saevel]

Never said it wasn't hard saevel, only that it wasn't impossible. Don't over blow what I said.

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

[Demon6324236]

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

Let me rephrase what I think is being said. If you look at data currently, you will see alot of people win this event. If you look at data without cheaters, very few people are actually completeing the event. In other words SE can not get accurate data on success rates for this event due to cheaters so even if the need to make it easier is great enough they would do it they can not see it because they are blinded by the cheaters making the win rate 50 times higher than it should be.

For example, if 1 in 100 runs are wins, and their goal is 1 in 10 runs, they are going to be bad, and SE would change it. But because of cheaters the win rate is at 1 in 20 so far as SE can see, and thats not to big of a jump in their eyes, so they don't mind, and leave it be. Now if they remove the cheaters or the ability to cheat then get accurate data based on the win rates without the tainted win/loss ratio they can assume if the event is working properly or not, and correct it accordingly.

[Xantavia]

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

Really, isn't this what they kinda did with Walk of Echoes? Nobody doing the event, they kept making adjustments, and now more people do. If NIU was dead within the first week, I think more than just a stopper would have been implemented.

[kyomi]

You said that those using secret ninja magic were preventing SE from "making it easier". This is BS, SE won't be making it "easier", they don't want it "easier", they want you to still be working on your gear in 2014.

"If those cheaters didn't get their reward, then SE would reevaluate the situation and give us non-cheaters the reward instead" is what your argument boils down to. We know from the past that this is BS, SE won't make this "easier" until they have new content to attract you with. Looking at the stats of the gear involved, it's obvious that SE intended NNI gear to be super-restricted in availability.

You pretty much only gleened what applied to your reasoning from what I said. The fact of the matter doesn't change when you have cheaters supplying inaccurate data about success rate compared to projected success rates or intended success rates. They have made adjustments after the fact on several events and are still making adjustments (this update for example altered difficulty of legion by restricting roam area of mobs creating a safe zone and the ability to re-enter zone if ejected fo all members ko). Thus I do not buy your powdered reasoning as fact given the actual fact so many have only completed their gear through illegitimate means. I can attest to the fact that reaching floor 80 is far more likely and a more timely path to the gear, but reaching 100 is still possible giving you instantly a gear of choice and up to 3 random gears when won.

[Kitkat]

You pretty much.......when won.

I forsee the "you're profile says lvl 1, why should I believe you" card coming up, and also I'll tell you now that arguing with saveal is like telling a brick wall it is actually drywall. By this I mean it is rather pointless to prove your view as his is set in stone and immovable no matter the reasoning provided. Not saying I disagree with what you say, just letting you know that Saveal is more a waste of effort to argue with than it is worth.

[Karbuncle]

Also if i'm not mistaken, Windower itself is said to run at a better standard FPS than the SE Windower, Which can cause a bit of lag easier.

I just vaguely remember hearing about it.

Edit: P.S - Its really not worth wasting your breath arguing with people who demonize windower, People who think Windower is the source of the Devils magic are usually Starcade-level, It'll be like arguing with an impenetrable brick wall of hate.

[Kitkat]

That is primarily due to the official windower being coded to constantly prioritize the process to "low" even if you go into task manager and change it to normal or high. Unofficial windower on the other hand doesn't do this. It defaults as a normal priority and will not change that even if you go in and change it to low or high. So on official windower when the most menial task starts up with a higher process priority it'll divert resources to that process over windower causing client lag.

[Natenn]

Removing lamp order would make nyzul too easy, maby just limit the # of times you can get an order floor to 1 or 2?