Where is my Phoenix Down?!

[Zyeriis]

So adding complexity is dumbing it down? Nice argument there champ. Did you know that as a result of adding in the oldschool stabilize via raise/reraise/phoenix down gameplay they could make newer fights designed with that functionality in mind harder? Ouch.

Stating opinion as fact again.
You're not adding complexity, don't know where you got that silly idea. "Oh I can get up again, that's complex!" No, that's an easy button.
Battles where you have no choice but death and battles where you have the possibility to die are not one and the same. You can argue my point that dying is part of the game, in some pathetic attempt to counter this but, you'll have missed the difference. Difficulty should be in staying alive, with the already in place systems to back you up, should you die. Adding another one, is just putting a net under a net, that is under a net.

That "functionality" is a gimmick at best....Champ.

[Zyeriis]

Phoenix Downs and Raise being in the same game isn't really redundant, unless you think every single other FF game ever made has redundant gameplay options. Trying to stabilize in an intense boss fight in those games was a very fine balance that some might consider complex especially considering the various status effects and conditions the enemies who usually put you in that spot can induce.

Also, weren't you the one crying when you thought I was making judgements about players skill levels earlier? And now you're saying that unless you have a WHM stapled to your side you're a "noob"? I'm not sure I follow. And if you're such a fan of preparation, let me tell you, phoenix downs have been an integral part of preparation in every other flagship title in the entire franchise, ask anyone who's actually played them and understands their inherent value which seems to be beyond you!

Played em all, there's only one that I didn't finish (single player ones anyway). Oh, and you're wrong (::shocked face: There's another Final Fantasy game that does not have phoenix downs. It's also an online, multiplayer one as well. It's called Final Fantasy XIV. Sure, the game sucks but, you're still wrong.

[Coldbrand]

Stating opinion as fact again.
You're not adding complexity, don't know where you got that silly idea. "Oh I can get up again, that's complex!" No, that's an easy button.
Battles where you have no choice but death and battles where you have the possibility to die are not one and the same. You can argue my point that dying is part of the game, in some pathetic attempt to counter this but, you'll have missed the difference. Difficulty should be in staying alive, with the already in place systems to back you up, should you die. Adding another one, is just putting a net under a net, that is under a net.

That "functionality" is a gimmick at best....Champ.

If you don't like how I state my opinions than don't read them. Add me to your ignore list, anyone who's played older FF games knows how difficult stabilizing a party is, and that's something only really possible on the same level when a tiny handful of caster jobs no longer have the monopoly on bringing people back up. Those fights added difficulty because it meant not being able to fight at anywhere near full capacity, restrictions are a form of difficulty, that's why places like Salvage exist.

At this point your phobia of the addition of the item leads me to believe perhaps you're just a White Mage who fears any potential competition on the monopoly that is your necessary presence in all events. Dancers are healers, you can bring them and still not have what you need for certain lengthier battles since they can't raise. If the Chemist job which is possibly the most requested new job on these forums were added, they aren't magically inclined, yet are considered a healer, should every non magical job not be able to ressurect players? Phoenix Downs have existed and been loved since FF1, sorry you feel they shouldn't be included because you think reraise is the pinnacle of preparedness and that all difficulty is centered around being able to get up again a single time.

[Alderin]

Not sure if you guys are forgetting the "Auto-Life" spell in various other FF's as well.

That is another form of Reraise.

So what's wrong with adding downs? I don't see any valid points to the arguments so far. Would also massively help those of us who still do the odd level-sync party where "Raise" isn't an option.

There are very little ways I believe that Phoenix Downs can be abused. Make the craft level high, not purchasable via an NPC and the materials required for the synth have to be farmed. This keeps the price high, so people won't just throw it on anyone they see that is dead.

Yes of course it is more ideal to have Reraise, and in a sense there aren't too many cases where you won't have it on. However if your out doing Abyssea things, lets say for example - you joined a shout PT for Raja (we all know how terrible they end up), your alliance procs red, 3/4 of the alliance is dead, and your lying on the ground waiting for the 4 mages that are still alive to run around and raise everyone while they have weakness timers?

Oh woops, Raja died and you didn't get his Atma because the mages were too busy raising everyone. Sob story, too bad... right?

Not with Phoenix Downs - The mages can raise one person, that one person can run around and get someone else with a Phoenix Down, that next person can go grab another person... Etc.

Is that truly abusing the system? I see Phoenix Downs would have their place.

[Zyeriis]

If you don't like how I state my opinions than don't read them. Add me to your ignore list, anyone who's played older FF games knows how difficult stabilizing a party is, and that's something only really possible on the same level when a tiny handful of caster jobs no longer have the monopoly on bringing people back up. Those fights added difficulty because it meant not being able to fight at anywhere near full capacity, restrictions are a form of difficulty, that's why places like Salvage exist.

At this point your phobia of the addition of the item leads me to believe perhaps you're just a White Mage who fears any potential competition on the monopoly that is your necessary presence in all events. Dancers are healers, you can bring them and still not have what you need for certain lengthier battles since they can't raise. If the Chemist job which is possibly the most requested new job on these forums were added, they aren't magically inclined, yet are considered a healer, should every non magical job not be able to ressurect players? Phoenix Downs have existed and been loved since FF1, sorry you feel they shouldn't be included because you think reraise is the pinnacle of preparedness and that all difficulty is centered around being able to get up again a single time.

That post is so full of wrong it's making my eyes bleed. I have no mage jobs, at all, closest thing is Paladin.
And yes, you are basically trying to push all healing mages out of events with this. Great, more useless jobs. Great idea.
Mages have been a staple of every final fantasy game as well (in fact more if you read my other post that points out that there's another final fantasy game that doesn't have phoenix downs).

You seem to forget that you aren't adding restrictions, you want to lift them by adding another safety net. If you do not understand this, I will re-iterate the fact that you're an idiot. Also, none of the primary ideas of the OP were about larger scale events, they were about smaller parties. My counter arguments were about the exploitation of said item in those larger events.

Back to the original topic of having phoenix downs for teams as small as 2. Bring RR and one of you have Raise. If you cannot accomplish this and still win, you need more people (heaven forbid). Again, I see absolutely no reason for this stupid easy button/final layer of netting being added.

[Coldbrand]

God forbid they ever tweak the AI to specifically hunt healers for certain more cunning monsters who can play around enmity properties.

Edit:

That post is so full of wrong it's making my eyes bleed. I have no mage jobs, at all, closest thing is Paladin.
And yes, you are basically trying to push all healing mages out of events with this. Great, more useless jobs. Great idea.
Mages have been a staple of every final fantasy game as well (in fact more if you read my other post that points out that there's another final fantasy game that doesn't have phoenix downs).

You seem to forget that you aren't adding restrictions, you want to lift them by adding another safety net. If you do not understand this, I will re-iterate the fact that you're an idiot. Also, none of the primary ideas of the OP were about larger scale events, they were about smaller parties. My counter arguments were about the exploitation of said item in those larger events.

Back to the original topic of having phoenix downs for teams as small as 2. Bring RR and one of you have Raise. If you cannot accomplish this and still win, you need more people (heaven forbid). Again, I see absolutely no reason for this stupid easy button/final layer of netting being added.

Here's a conundrum for you, phoenix downs don't eliminate the need for the healer role in the games that have them, and unless you can prove me wrong, they wouldn't in this one either.

Also, I love how you think Phoenix Downs would suddenly make the game "stupid easy". Care to illustrate your point further? Let's say you had Phoenix Downs to face Absolute Virtue back during the 75 cap. Tell me how their implementation would make it so you'd beat him. Let's go with rare/ex ones for this mental exercise.

[Zyeriis]

Not sure if you guys are forgetting the "Auto-Life" spell in various other FF's as well.

That is another form of Reraise.

So what's wrong with adding downs? I don't see any valid points to the arguments so far. Would also massively help those of us who still do the odd level-sync party where "Raise" isn't an option.

There are very little ways I believe that Phoenix Downs can be abused. Make the craft level high, not purchasable via an NPC and the materials required for the synth have to be farmed. This keeps the price high, so people won't just throw it on anyone they see that is dead.

Yes of course it is more ideal to have Reraise, and in a sense there aren't too many cases where you won't have it on. However if your out doing Abyssea things, lets say for example - you joined a shout PT for Raja (we all know how terrible they end up), your alliance procs red, 3/4 of the alliance is dead, and your lying on the ground waiting for the 4 mages that are still alive to run around and raise everyone while they have weakness timers?

Oh woops, Raja died and you didn't get his Atma because the mages were too busy raising everyone. Sob story, too bad... right?

Not with Phoenix Downs - The mages can raise one person, that one person can run around and get someone else with a Phoenix Down, that next person can go grab another person... Etc.

Is that truly abusing the system? I see Phoenix Downs would have their place.

Have to fail at some point. No point in playing something you always win.

[Flunklesnarkin]

God forbid they ever tweak the AI to specifically hunt healers for certain more cunning monsters who can play around enmity properties.

Can't tweak the AI.. it would anger the unicorn prince.. Fact

Also something about enmity.. [I don't speak english].. Fact

[Alderin]

Have to fail at some point. No point in playing something you always win.

This game can't be won - cause there is no ending. Phoenix Downs would not gimp the system.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

This game can't be won - cause there is no ending. Phoenix Downs would not gimp the system.

No. But you can do everything.