FINAL FANTASY XI® Seekers of Adoulin

[Twille]

1) Walk into Gamestop.
2) Look at the walls.
3) Ask employee about new PS2 releases.
4) Open any videogame magazine (sans RETROGamer or Nintendo Power) and find the PS2 reviews and previews.

Quoted for truth.

[Jackstin]

I'd like to ask a question, as well.

To those people who duel box. Have you bought both the PC and PS2 versions of all expansions, or have you bought the PS2 versions and torrented the PC versions.

I'm not accusing everyone of doing this, but I know that many do because they feel (incorrectly) that it is their legal right as they've bought the game once.

For this to be worthwhile for SE, they'd need to have a significant number of people willing to buy the game either just on PS2, or for both PS2 and PC. If people are just buying the game once, but taking advantage of SE releasing two versions, why would SE support that?

Clearly there aren't the numbers to do this, else they would release it. You may well argue that its just a stupid decision and stupid decisions are made all the time, but SE have far more information at their disposal than you or I do, so its pretty rich for you to criticise their business decisions,

[Gilraen]

Wow, people... way to overestimate the US market there. Reading some of these posts I have to cringe. You people DO realize that Japan is Square's home market, not the US, right? You DON'T piss off the home market. Do that and you're guaranteed to fail and hard. Dropping PS2 support would be shooting themselves in the head; not the foot, the head. Yes, I play on the PS2 version. Yes, I play it on a first generation PS3. No, I don't dual-box because paying $26 a month on one game is both crazy and beyond my willingness to spend (on a single game). And no, I don't run mules as I can't see spending another dollar on a character I'll rarely actively use.

I got into this game on the PS2 version (on a fat PS2 no less) and honestly, it's what I'm comfortable with. I'm not a huge game-o-phile so fancy graphics don't carry the same weight with me as it apparently does with most, and I don't feel I should be obliged as much as others. I didn't make the game, I don't really have any right to dictate how it's made or progresses. Nor does anyone else. Yeah, lack of PS2 release in the US has me miffed but most I can do is ask for a US release or, at worse, knuckle under and track down a PC version and the expansion.

[Aldersyde]

Yes, because no one can provide such evidence. Sometimes best guesses are all there is to work with. And you're doing nothing else. You're screaming discrimination when you have absolutely zero evidence that that's what's going on. You say that PC gaming is not big in Japan, also with zero evidence (and which I believe to be wrong). Yet you condemn others for doing the same thing?

1. Exactly, no hard evidence. Never been released. No, best guesses aren't good enough when you're basing your whole argument off of it. If you don't have evidence, you either have to (a) look harder for it or (b) back away from your position. I fail students for being unwilling or unable to do either. There's a lot of conclusive statements being thrown out without any evidence whatsoever and that drives me batty. I could tell people how to go about looking for it without using official SE sources but its not my position and I'm not doing work for lazy people.

2. I said, to me, it appears to be regional discrimination and it feels like a big screw you from SE. I stated my argument in two posts pages before and I did not present it as fact but as a subjective feeling. I feel that way because SE has tried to implement differential options based on region before, as when SE implemented its new payment system. Maybe discrimination is too strong a word because of its negative connotations, but they have, in fact, tried to treat its playerbase differently based on where they live. In the end, it turned out that they could accept credit cards directly the NA player base but just chose not to, until people made an uproar about it.

3. I practice what I preach. I had read articles about the state of PC gaming in Japan before and that it what I base my opinion on. I did a google search and found information pretty easily on it. Obviously, it would be better if I could find some good hard stats on the numbers but some articles are the best I can do without being able to read Japanese.

http://injapan.gaijinpot.com/live/te...-and-the-west/
http://kotaku.com/5859162/the-countr...much/gallery/1
http://kotaku.com/5844588/why-japane...-more-pc-games

I also found a couple of forums discussing the state of PC gaming in Japan, where the general consensus is that consoles are much more popular in Japan:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/foru...-PC-gaming-huh
http://www.capcom-unity.com/ask_capc...y_by_Capcom_JP

History of gaming in Japan:
http://www.japaninc.com/cpj/magazine...97pcgames.html (little old, but concise)

That's with a simple search. I'm pretty confident in my original assertion that console gaming is much bigger in Japan. Most of the information is from 2010-2011. Of course, I'm open to new information, which is a lot more consideration and respect than has been shown to me.

[Aldersyde]

Someone's angry...

1) Walk into Gamestop.
2) Look at the walls.
3) Ask employee about new PS2 releases.
4) Open any videogame magazine (sans RETROGamer or Nintendo Power) and find the PS2 reviews and previews.

If you were able to find out about any new or relevant PS2 software information, then you are in a wormhole and have found a way to trascend time and space. And for that, I congratulate you.

Exactly how does this method ascertain how many NA players are currently playing FFXI on the PS2, which is the whole crux of the matter?

[Siiri]

It is like some ps2 players are 3 year old children screaming and jumping up and down, "But I want the expansion on ps2!!!."

Ps2 were released in 2000. People using them have been very lucky to have had them working and supported this long. I do not wish anyone to lose access, but SE has made a business decision. I have had 3 ps2 friends in the past 6 months have their ps2 devices break down. 2 switched to xbox , one quit. Sorry ps2 players, those are the breaks. Sony doesn't support these devices in the US, it was only a matter of time before SE quit making expansions for them.

If you want a console try the xbox, if you don't care get a pc. If you want to quit, go ahead and quit. If you feel you don't have the money to buy a new console or pc, you have 6-10 months. Throw aside 50 bucks a month or whatever by the time the expansion comes out you will have plenty to buy something. Acting like a spoiled baby isn't getting anyone's sympathy. Perhaps a valid argument can be made for downloadable content, I don't' know. If one is to be made though try not sounding like an entitled brat.

[Caspin]

I look for Square Enix to have a DLC for Anyone still on PS2. They are not going to kill the Ps2 players. American, Europeon or Japanese. Square Enix really cant afford anymore bad PR, Square Enix isn't all stupid. Or least I hope there not now days. I think they learned there lesson.

[Arcon]

1. Exactly, no hard evidence. Never been released. No, best guesses aren't good enough when you're basing your whole argument off of it.

Exactly the same as you, no hard evidence. You only brought one article that even said that PC gaming wasn't strong in Japan, and that article also said the the largest portion of the recent PC market growth came from there. The only other article on the topic is from 15 years ago, and no matter how well it is written, it cannot be used as an argumentative tool, but only as a historical base. The rest was just some barely related articles and some anecdotes from random people on some forums, which I'm sure you agree is not evidence at all.

We don't have numbers, but we also have evidence, namely SE's reactions. Why do you think they did a quiz like that anyway? Why do you think they would dismiss a part of their userbase if it wasn't profitable to do so? It's a logical implication drawn from their actions. And it's not definitive, and we know that. But it's a good indication.

And one more thing you should consider is that "console gaming" does not implicate "PS2 gaming", as that's what this is about. The PS2 portion of the playerbase is dwindling, in Japan too. When a new player starts, they're not going to buy a game for a console that maybe even predates them. By today's standards, this game plays horrible. There is nearly zero incentive to buy this game on the PS2, unless you just discovered previous FF titles and wanna play this for completion's sake, and even then you're more than likely to get any other version you can unless you're a rabid Sony fanboy.

If you don't have evidence, you either have to (a) look harder for it or (b) back away from your position.

Firstly, I'm not trying to convince you. I was just commenting your misplaced craving for factual numbers, because no one can provide those, neither us nor you. Secondly, as I said before, there is evidence, just not hard evidence or proof. It is, however, enough to draw logical implications from it. And finally, if there's no evidence for either argument, there's still no reason to back away. That's when your position turns into a belief. And as long as you recognize that and don't defend it irrationally as a fact, you're free to remain there.

2. I said, to me, it appears to be regional discrimination and it feels like a big screw you from SE.

No, you said:

So the only thing you're really supporting is regional discrimination.

With that you dismissed our arguments and said we're supporting discrimination, which is not what anyone is doing here. I'm aware that you said "seems like discrimination" before, but this was the post this particular argument originated from, and it's the one where you forced that opinion on us instead of just SE. With that, you called us discriminating as well, not just them. Also, you weren't the only one who argued discrimination, so it was not solely directed at you.

Maybe discrimination is too strong a word because of its negative connotations, but they have, in fact, tried to treat its playerbase differently based on where they live.

That's my entire problem here. No one is denying the regionally biased treatment, but there does seem to be an underlying reason. Discrimination would mean prejudicial decisions, whereas this seemed like an economic one.

The reason why I support it is because it actually is a first step in the PS2-less direction. This decision on SE's part is not only a consequence of the dwindling NA/EU PS2 playerbase, but it's also a reminder to the JP folks, that this is in their future. This is a motivation for them to switch to another platform. Don't think that this will go unnoticed by the JP playerbase. It may actually help speed up their departure from the PS2.

Exactly how does this method ascertain how many NA players are currently playing FFXI on the PS2, which is the whole crux of the matter?

Because it shows that there's zero or negative population growth in that department, whereas new PC players emerge daily (even more so recently, as it seems judging by various threads on the forums and people I meet in the game), further shifting the ratio away from PS2 gaming.

I look for Square Enix to have a DLC for Anyone still on PS2. They are not going to kill the Ps2 players. American, Europeon or Japanese. Square Enix really cant afford anymore bad PR, Square Enix isn't all stupid. Or least I hope there not now days. I think they learned there lesson.

While offering the expansion as DLC would maybe not be economically bad in the short term, it may very well be in the long term, for the sake of phasing out the PS2 entirely. However, since I don't know when that would be, I can't really argue against you right now. It would, however, uplift the morale of the PS2 playerbase globally, which I consider to be a mistake. PS2 players should not be encouraged to keep playing on their outdated and outlived platform.

[Zerich]

Exactly how does this method ascertain how many NA players are currently playing FFXI on the PS2, which is the whole crux of the matter?

You have to be trolling. I don't want to believe that there are people out there ignorant enough not to understand that printing expansion discs (and SE's favoritism for their JP base(see: FF Agito)) for the PS2 in NA, would not sell well at all in NA.

But seriously, are all the PS2 players on food-stamps or high-schoolers, cause I am scared shitless if they're legit.

[Zeargi]

SE already proved it via their actions. SE is a business. Businesses do what is most economic. If there was enough of a player base on PS2 in NA, they'd still be getting support.

This is far from true. Business do stupid things ALL the time. I mean, look at Disney, they throw money way like it's water. Sony... we all remember the PS3 launch. Anyone remember Squaresoft? And how it tanked horribly after a certain 3D Movie endeavor, and as such had to be bailed out by another Video game company, which then proceeded to R*** the original company's brand title in multiple spin-offs and sequels?? I bought my 360 to play two characters at once, because I didn't have that great of a computer. My computer is pretty decent now, but I still don't want to play on the PC. I don't like the set up, and as it is, it's not really THAT much of an improvement for me, because I don't have a HD monitor. (and not that I play games because they have to have awesome graphics) SE made an easy 60 bucks off me on my PS2 alone with the release of the 6 mini-expansion, ALL of which were digital. They did almost next to nothing because they were in zones that already existed or cloned areas that were re-landscaped (And that was removing the Crags...). While it's most definitely difficult to program... They are already doing the work, and it's not THAT hard to make a disc that has a multi-region code that allowed for people to continue to play by buying the game from SE directly, after all they are also a distributor. (that saying a disc is the only option, but that cuts-out the middle man and maximizes the profits.) And of course, I can also point out all the Abyssea mini-expansion which did add "New zones" were again completely Digital. So if this is indeed the 2012 and blah, blah, blah that everyone keeps saying. Why is it so hard to make it DIGITAL...

it's an MMO...ppl play MMO's on PCs...deal with it

Now, I'm gonna let you know... THIS MMO was a PS2 original, it was designed and debuted on the PS2 in Japan.