In case meriting protectra V wasn't bad enough...

[saevel]

I agree Dragoy. Devotions main use is in small parties or when playing in big battles where a Paladin is truly expected to tank.


There are many mobs that dispel buffs during events. In Legion, buffs are constantly being dispelled and since we do not have the luxury of temp items or refresh atmas, wasteful MP is an issue. You will have to recast Protectra between waves and right before your DDs begin to fight another NM that turns them into MP sponges. My idle set has 8 to 9 MP Refresh and sometimes that is not enough to keep up in Legion because we spam cures and curagas as we hop from NM to NM. During these fights you are better off using your stratagems for cure related purposes and Accession+Stoneskin, not wasting 252 MP and a stratagem on an 84MP spell that you should have already have (Protectra IV or V).

Are you hard of hearing (err seeing)? Or just practicing enforced ignorance?

I've stated multiple times that you won't be casting that mid-battle, ever. Should you get debuffed, Protect will be the last spell to be reapplied. It's effect is nearly negligible as it is, shell / haste / barspells (if applicable) are vastly most important. I'd even pick an accessioned Regen IV over Protect.

I could of swore I said something to that effect a page or so ago.

[InsideOut]

Are you hard of hearing (err seeing)? Or just practicing enforced ignorance?

I've stated multiple times that you won't be casting that mid-battle, ever. Should you get debuffed, Protect will be the last spell to be reapplied. It's effect is nearly negligible as it is, shell / haste / barspells (if applicable) are vastly most important. I'd even pick an accessioned Regen IV over Protect.

I could of swore I said something to that effect a page or so ago.

You said it but I dismissed it as unrealistic bullcrap that does not fly during actual gameplay.
In the real White Mage world, we keep our party members Protected, Shelled, Boosted, and fully buffed the first chance we get after that buff has worn.

You should really change your crappy play style, or maybe its not your play style that you are defending. This would make perfect sense since you are aruging that reapplying a Protect buff during mid battle is something that should never be done. lol Either you are delusional or just an all around sucky player.

Because you have very little knowledge about practical white mage gameplay, I'll just accept that you are only here to defend your silly friend.

[saevel]

Ahh your one of those players

Click Name
Add to Ignore

Profit!

[SpankWustler]

The Shell, Boost, Bar-, etc. lines all have easily quantifiable and measurable effects. Those effects may not be astronomical in the case of the Boost line, but it's still easy enough for a bro to know what the spell is actually doing and how much of that is being done.

This is not true of the Protect line. Beyond "this sucks somehow", the inner-workings of Player Defense VS Monster Attack are a bit foggy. A few people have collected some data and offered some conjecture, but it remains one of the few things with no highly accurate model at present. "This sucks somehow" being the most concrete knowledge of it's mechanics is pretty telling about how worthwhile Defense buffs are.

Even a post by the Development Bros insisting Defense doesn't suck that bad, which presumably showed sublimely ideal conditions for increases in Defense given how those guys roll, would not have made Protect look anything like the amazing buff that is Shell if Protect were included in it. Protect V probably would have come to around 9~14% mitigation under those presumably ideal conditions, and for Defense, conditions change really freaking often.

Jobs with buffs that lower defense may even be at the lower bound both before and after Protect V when dealing with high attack monsters. I'm unsure about this bit, as it is not exactly easy for a bro to be repeatedly struck in the crotch by Ig-Alima or Mired Awful Thing forever with Last Resort or Counterstance up and his or her back turned while recording that vital bounty of crotch-strike data, but that such a thing is even in question is very noteworthy.

TLDNR Version: I am unsure what not feeling that Protect is worth casting mid-fight has to do with feeling that anything else is worth casting mid-fight. It is not comparable to most other buffs.

I have no idea how what I just typed relates to the argument going on, because I openly admit to not reading any of it. There's nothing to drink in this house and I don't hate myself that much anymore. I just can't pass up a chance to further disparage the Protect line.

[Aleste]

...we are considering adjustments so that the effect of Protect becomes stronger in the future.... One direction we are exploring is to make the defense increase based on a percentage rather than a static amount.

I swear to god, if they add some extra defense to protect 5 because the majority of us are too busy bickering over the difference between 1 extra devotion merit, accession-protect 5 and protectra 5...

We have the chance to fix this spell, and it's not even a hard fix. Drop it.

[Llana_Virren]

I swear to god, if they add some extra defense to protect 5 because the majority of us are too busy bickering over the difference between 1 extra devotion merit, accession-protect 5 and protectra 5...

We have the chance to fix this spell, and it's not even a hard fix. Drop it.

Yet, not bickering about the spell yields no changes at all. Hmmm....

As an aside, the entire line of protect spells honestly need some form of modification. The damage reduction of Protect spells is a laughable concept, frankly, as evidenced in any end-game event. Shell/Bar- spells however, are noticed when they are missing.

The Protect spells (including it's merit version) lack the potency needed/expected of them; this is why Protect is usually (if not always) the last buff that is reapplied... if a WHM even bothers to (and I know of a few WHMs who have argued that that would be a waste of mid-battle MP.

[Babekeke]

If protect was dispelled for everyone in an alliance/party, the requirement for re-applying it to the whole party is un-necessary anyway. As Spankwustler mentioned, anyone using Berserk/Last Resort is lowering their def by enough that they are probably below the cap on anything that matters, with or without protect. Counterstance removes all def gained from anything other than VIT, so protect is completely useless there.

Using some quick eyeballing and guesstimating, a lvl 99 character with ~100 base VIT, wearing a full Phorcy's set (random example) and has a bit of def from accessories will have ~400-420 def with no JA buffs or protect. I couldn't find any info anywhere about the att of any mobs, only their defensive stats, so it's hard to give hard estimates here but:
If def really mattered, melees would always use a food like rabbit pie (they don't).
If they did use rabbit pie, they would sacrifice 50 att from a food like red curry bun, for 100 def.
On our example, that char would now have 500~520 def, and protect(ra) V would make it 560~580 def. Yay! Even this barely makes a difference to the amount of damage that you take from the high att mobs.

Now, let's look at who would actually would get this benefit from protect:

blm rdm smn brd whm sch rng cor = should all be out of range of AOE. So no (unless rdm is tanking, of course, but if so they can re-apply it themselves anyway)
pup bst = /nin for shadows to absorb AOE TP moves, unless the moves wipe/ignore shadows, in which case /mage and just let the pet DD, or sub war and use berserk. So no.
nin war drk sam = Should all be riding berserk/last resort timer. So no.
thf dnc = either /nin if shadows absorb aoe tp moves, or /war and ride berserk if not. So no.
mnk = if using counterstance, protect has no effect. If not, see thf dnc. So no.
blu = awquard one. Usually /nin or /war (as thf dnc) but has cocoon/harden shell which if set and used give a worthwhile boost to protect. I'd go with yes.
drg = for DD, usually /sam, so no way of reducing def with JA. If /blu (ironically generally for soloing) cocoon makes bonuses to def all the better. So yes.
pld = yes (but will probably re-apply it [if they have mp] before the whm can)

So there you go. You're arguing the worth of protectra/acsession protect for the whole party/alliance, but only 3 jobs are even worth casting it on, as it stands. (IMO)

[InsideOut]

Job abilities that lowers defense should not exempt players from needing Protect. They would actually need it more so than those who are not using defense lowering abilities.

The Protect defense boost was never high enough to make a big impact but it does slightly lower the amount of damage taken even at higher levels. That alone makes it worth recasting. The stoneskin effect from Afflatus Solace is eaten through quicker without Protect. An enemy's physical weapon skill does noticeably more damage without Protect.

Mages get hit with AoE often enough because, unless they are using windower, there is really no way to precisely count yalm distance. For them, it is more of a trial and error type of thing. Listing Rangers and Corsairs as jobs that should be out of AoE range is not a reality because many NMs have AoE moves that reach the comfortable distance of these ranged attackers.

Again, the effect of Protect should be made stronger but its current effect does have a benefit noticeable enough for it to be cast on your party members. As for mid-battle, rushing in during a stagger proc or between mob waves is always a good time to recast all of your buffs. If you find it worthwhile to cast it at the start of a fight, obviously you are doing that for a reason. ( I just hope that reason isn't because your party leader demands it )

[Nakts]

WHM priority in battle should be cures, status removal, mp for future cures, then buffs. The big argument for Protectra 5 was for BLUs using Cannonball.

[Dantedmc]

If protect was dispelled for everyone in an alliance/party, the requirement for re-applying it to the whole party is un-necessary anyway. As Spankwustler mentioned, anyone using Berserk/Last Resort is lowering their def by enough that they are probably below the cap on anything that matters, with or without protect. Counterstance removes all def gained from anything other than VIT, so protect is completely useless there.

Using some quick eyeballing and guesstimating, a lvl 99 character with ~100 base VIT, wearing a full Phorcy's set (random example) and has a bit of def from accessories will have ~400-420 def with no JA buffs or protect. I couldn't find any info anywhere about the att of any mobs, only their defensive stats, so it's hard to give hard estimates here but:
If def really mattered, melees would always use a food like rabbit pie (they don't).
If they did use rabbit pie, they would sacrifice 50 att from a food like red curry bun, for 100 def.
On our example, that char would now have 500~520 def, and protect(ra) V would make it 560~580 def. Yay! Even this barely makes a difference to the amount of damage that you take from the high att mobs.

Now, let's look at who would actually would get this benefit from protect:

blm rdm smn brd whm sch rng cor = should all be out of range of AOE. So no (unless rdm is tanking, of course, but if so they can re-apply it themselves anyway)
pup bst = /nin for shadows to absorb AOE TP moves, unless the moves wipe/ignore shadows, in which case /mage and just let the pet DD, or sub war and use berserk. So no.
nin war drk sam = Should all be riding berserk/last resort timer. So no.
thf dnc = either /nin if shadows absorb aoe tp moves, or /war and ride berserk if not. So no.
mnk = if using counterstance, protect has no effect. If not, see thf dnc. So no.
blu = awquard one. Usually /nin or /war (as thf dnc) but has cocoon/harden shell which if set and used give a worthwhile boost to protect. I'd go with yes.
drg = for DD, usually /sam, so no way of reducing def with JA. If /blu (ironically generally for soloing) cocoon makes bonuses to def all the better. So yes.
pld = yes (but will probably re-apply it [if they have mp] before the whm can)

So there you go. You're arguing the worth of protectra/acsession protect for the whole party/alliance, but only 3 jobs are even worth casting it on, as it stands. (IMO)

You can do the exact same thing for Devotion:

rng cor pup bst nin war sam thf dnc mnk = no

drg = no, in most situations when they would be /mage and have mp they would be solo.

rdm sch = no, never in the same pt as whm and shouldn't run out of mp anyway.

blm = no, only in the same party as whm in abyssea, where it should not run out of mp. It could become useful if there was a new lowman fight than needed blm and was taxing on mp.

brd = no, has plenty of refresh for the small amount of healing they do if any

blu = no, they are never party with whm except in abyssea, where you shouldn't run out of mp. As with blm, if mp ever actually becomes an issue again, then it will be useful.

smn = maybe? usually not even in the same party on whm.

pld drk = potentially , except they don't run out of mp in voidwatch, and aren't in abyssea often from what I've seen if they even run out of mp there.

So only two maybe three jobs really are even in a situation to benefit from devotion at this time.