Attacking Monsters with an Avatar While Being AFK.

[Sarick]

PPL were doing it to farm wind geodes and Garudites while AFK, due to the frequent wind weather in the zone and ease of killing chigoes.

The GM's don't care about this either way, no one reports these guys it's not a big deal. There're people farming these zones with 3rd party automated tools already while totally AFK. What makes this horrible is they take action on in game features but, if players are abusing away farming by other means it's totally ignored.

What is SE jailing these people for when they created the design issue in the first place? It's totally backward thinking on their part. They're punishing players for features that've been in the game since snm was introduced yet, they sit back and ignore everything else. This is just ironic.

[Llana_Virren]

It's totally backward thinking on their part. They're punishing players for features that have been in the game.....

There are a lot of things that have been "in the game" as a feature, or intentional design, and those designs have been manipulated.

The key word for everyone arguing about the "irony" is disruption. The SMN auto-attack feature was disrupting gameplay for others. SE is not punishing anyone for using job features as they were designed, but rather for intentionally disrupting gameplay for others by claiming key monsters while AFK.

I swear, some of you guys argue about this stuff and suggest that you've been playing FFXI your entire life, yet you're totally ignorant to the actual issues at hand, and you want to blame "big bad SE" for not letting you do whatever you want. Of course, if you can't be happy, then "damn those cheaters!" who found a way to get what they want without disrupting gameplay for others....

[Yinnyth]

The GM's don't care about this either way, no one reports these guys it's not a big deal. There're people farming these zones with 3rd party automated tools already while totally AFK. What makes this horrible is they take action on in game features but, if players are abusing away farming by other means it's totally ignored.

They take action against the real bots as well as the smn bots. It's just that because pets auto-attack stuff, and because this has become widespread, merely TAKING action is no longer enough. They need to take action and say "Hey guys, I know it's using ingame features, but absentee play still isn't ok by our rules. So knock it off and tell us if you see someone doing this." It should go without saying that real bots are bad too. Would you feel better if they made a post saying "Oh, by the way... botting? Still bad. We'll still ban you for that."

It's totally backward thinking on their part. They're punishing players for features that've been in the game since snm was introduced yet

Your car (I'm assuming you have one, if I'm wrong, please just pretend along with me) could probably go 100 mph through a school zone. It's a design feature. Doesn't mean it's legal or a good idea. Kitchen cookware could be used to remove various pieces of your neighbor's body. Again, design feature but illegal and bad idea. Using nothing but ingame features, I could trick various NMs in various zones into attacking and killing hapless newbs. Against the rules, and for good reason.

If they made SMN botting impossible without using an actual bot, they'd have to prevent SMN pets from auto-defending their master. Again, BAD IDEA.

[Llana_Virren]

Your car (I'm assuming you have one, if I'm wrong, please just pretend along with me) could probably go 100 mph through a school zone. It's a design feature. Doesn't mean it's legal or a good idea.

Woah, hold on now... how else are we supposed to skill up Tarutaru evasion?

[Sarick]

Your car (I'm assuming you have one, if I'm wrong, please just pretend along with me) could probably go 100 mph through a school zone. It's a design feature. Doesn't mean it's legal or a good idea. Kitchen cookware could be used to remove various pieces of your neighbor's body. Again, design feature but illegal and bad idea. Using nothing but ingame features, I could trick various NMs in various zones into attacking and killing hapless newbs. Against the rules, and for good reason.

With the car feature you make a choice to push the peddle to the floor to exceed the speed limit. Pressing the gas peddle is a conscious choice. With the summoner you just call the pet go AFK and "THE GAME" pet decides to defend you. The game automates the attacks because the game has the pet auto attack. It's more like using cruse control on the highway. You push one button (summon pet) then sit back and let the car (pet) manage the gas peddle (aggro).

Also, pulling NM to MPK people is intent on greefing others. If you're trying to escape a NM and accidentally happen to accidentally die running etc. it's not the same.

I don't agree that they should be allowed to do this. I do think it's stupid that they ban people for this when there are other bigger issues they DO ignore. Seriously, If it's broken then SE should fix it.

[Llana_Virren]

With the car feature ... pressing the gas peddle is a conscious choice. With the summoner you just ... go AFK. The game automates the attacks because the game has the pet auto attack. It's more like using cruse control on the highway ... you push one button

So you're still missing the point. Summoning your avatar and then going AFK is a chosen act.
Pressing on the gas is a chosen act.
Pressing a button is a chosen act.

If you can't see that using "summon avatar" and going AFK doesn't fit in the same category as somone who uses an infinite-loop macro by pressing "one button" ... then this whole issue is lost on you.

Frankly, I could care less. The issue is not that the avatar is auto-attacking . The issue is that the SMN is deliberately putting himself in a position where abusing that feature allows him to auto-claim monsters without actively playing the game.

There is a difference between using a feature, and abusing it. These Summoners were abusing it, which brought forth the undesirable wrath of SE.

Again, you're using the argument that "the game allows it, so it should be ok" but the game also allows players to leech EXP, which was something Duzell pointed out earlier.

The difference is that the prior interfered with other players while the latter does not.

[Sarick]

So you're still missing the point. Summoning your avatar and then going AFK is a chosen act.
Pressing on the gas is a chosen act.
Pressing a button is a chosen act.

If you can't see that using "summon avatar" and going AFK doesn't fit in the same category as somone who uses an infinite-loop macro by pressing "one button" ... then this whole issue is lost on you.

Frankly, I could care less. The issue is not that the avatar is auto-attacking . The issue is that the SMN is deliberately putting himself in a position where abusing that feature allows him to auto-claim monsters without actively playing the game.

There is a difference between using a feature, and abusing it. These Summoners were abusing it, which brought forth the undesirable wrath of SE.

Again, you're using the argument that "the game allows it, so it should be ok" but the game also allows players to leech EXP, which was something Duzell pointed out earlier.

The difference is that the prior interfered with other players while the latter does not.

You're the one missing the point. I already stated that I don't think it's in the best interest to not FIX this problem. I also pointed out that they have other issues that are clearly being ignored. The previous post about cars breaking laws isn't the same. These players are just standing around and gaining exp/etc while afk because a broken game feature. I did point out that others are doing the same thing using other means and no action is taken.

"auto-claim monsters without actively playing the game".

Their resolve is laughable when they refuse to do anything about other issues that disrupt the game. You know the ones that aren't because broken in game features. These interfere with the economy of hard working players who farm while not afk.

Judging by my quotes being butchered (partial quotes) I don't think half of what I've wrote even equals what people think I wrote.

[Llana_Virren]

These players are just standing around and gaining exp/etc while afk because a broken game feature. I did point out that others are doing the same thing using other means and no action is taken.

Their resolve is laughable when they refuse to do anything about other issues that disrupt the game. You know the ones that aren't because broken in game features. These interfere with the economy of hard working players who farm while not afk.

Judging by my quotes being butchered (partial quotes) I don't think half of what I've wrote even equals what people think I wrote.

Two things:

1. Your quotes are not being butchered. There's a difference between cutting out monologue to repeat only the core content of a quote (which I have done), and changing what a person said. Your message remained the same in every quotation.

2. You still don't understand. It's not farming while AFK that SE is freaking out about. It is farming specific mobs which other players need to farm, while AFK.

Again, if you look at the last 10 years of FFXI, the only time SE freaks out about this is when there is a significant impact on players (ie. interference). AFK leech parties do not do this (as of now) because no one bothers camping where they do; no one bothers fighting the mobs they do; and no one loses claim on monsters in the area they are fighting.

You may not see a difference, but SE does, and for as long as I've been playing FFXI, I can say that they've got it right on this one.

Oh, and on the touchy subject of leech parties, let me say this:

Just because someone leveled a job without doing leech parties, does not mean that person "had it harder." Unless you can recall the days where "EXP Chain #6!" was more rare than a JP party inviting an NA player, then you don't know what real EXP grinding is. Honestly, with the level cap pushed to 99, and the amount of EXP required, Abyssea became a necessity in order to allow players (both new, and old on a new job) to be able to quickly get to the meat and potatoes of the game.

[Yinnyth]

With the car feature you make a choice to push the peddle to the floor to exceed the speed limit. Pressing the gas peddle is a conscious choice. With the summoner you just call the pet go AFK and "THE GAME" pet decides to defend you.

And then you happen to go afk in the same spot day after day. You happen to get a stack of geodes in a week, and happen to sell them on the AH for a regal crapload (3.7x as large as a normal crapload (it's metric)) of gil, and happen to go back to going afk in the same spot some more. That's why this is being handled by the STF and not just the GMs. They're being more careful than they should be about this so they only get repeat offenders.

Almost no one goes afk where they'll get aggro unless they're in a HUGE hurry (house burning down), or they're botting. If you're in a HUGE hurry, you probably won't do it more than once in the same area.

If you want to stay completely safe though, follow this basic rule: If you wouldn't afk there without a pet, don't afk there with a pet. How many people get killed by going afk and getting chigoe aggro in Grauberg_S? In the last year, I'd say it's lower than 0.000000001% of the population of the game. So if you banned 100% of people who couldn't respond to a tell by a GM for 10 minutes while their pet kills chigoes, you would only wrongly ban about one millionth of a person.

Also, pulling NM to MPK people is intent on greefing others. If you're trying to escape a NM and accidentally happen to accidentally die running etc. it's not the same.

Also, changing your job to SMN, going out to Grauberg_S, finding an open chigoe spot, summoning your avatar and going afk at that location for 12 hours is intent on engaging in absentee play. Both are against the rules. The tricky part is proving intent.

I find it strange how you think GMs would search for intent when it comes to MPK, but would completely skip that step when it comes to botting.

I don't agree that they should be allowed to do this. I do think it's stupid that they ban people for this when there are other bigger issues they DO ignore. Seriously, If it's broken then SE should fix it.

"Bigger issues" is subjective, but I'm willing to listen. Which issues should the STF and GMs be focusing on?

[Sarick]

"Bigger issues" is subjective, but I'm willing to listen. Which issues should the STF and GMs be focusing on?

I find it strange how you think GMs would search for intent when it comes to MPK, but would completely skip that step when it comes to botting.

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Bot farming and this issue are identical except this one uses in game exploits. I'm just like the others ranting on this topic. I don't care how people play as long as they don't disrupt the game by screwing over others. If I'm busting my arse to get a few avatarites and see people automated flood farming it's no different then what these snm are doing. That's why.