[dev1115] Job Adjustments: Red Mage

[Duelle]

-WHM is the 'healing specialist', BLM is the nuking specialist and RDM is the "healing and enhancing specialist". So why does the healing specialist get AoE enhancing as well as AoE curing and why does the nuking specialist get AoE enfeebling in addition to AoE nuking? Shouldn't the enfeebling/enhancing specialist get the AoE enhancing/enfeebling? What good does having the highest skill for potent bar-spells and gain-spells if it only affects the RDM itself?

Speaking strictly in terms of archetypes, enhancing/buffs are built into healing. This is why healers as a rule can buff their comrades. Red Mage is a hybrid. A guy with black magic, white magic, and a sword in hand. That's VERY different from being a healer.

-Our main function is to enfeeble but 90% of NMs heavily resist enfeebling. I haven't seen many NMs that heavily resist nukes or magic damage though.

You're not taking into account that enfeebles as per Final Fantasy are pretty damn OP when looking at the big picture of debuffs relative to MMOs. Again, Red Mage wouldn't have run into this problem if it received magic that actually enfeebled a mob instead of try to shut it down in some way. Reducing potential damage is very different from negating an action (Paralyze). Reducing potential magic damage is very different from locking up spells (Silence). Reducing effectiveness and damage from special attacks is very different from locking those up (Amnesia).

- Where's Haste II?

Considering Haste is just as spell, we don't need a II version of it unless it's self cast, scales with enhancing skill and gives us much more than recast reductions and faster auto-attacks.

With all of this said, you can't take the same approach taken to BLM WHM and SCH. Firstly because the job is a hybrid, and if there's gonna be uber spell then I expect uber melee buffs to maintain the hybrid aspect of the job. Secondly because the job is built upon borrowing things from other jobs. That has to always be kept in mind when dealing with RDM.

I'm sure that if they're listening SE is already well aware of the concerns everyone repeats about major merit overhauls for Red Mage for whenever they get around to it, I'm less certain they know about timer adjustments in line with their stated goals for adjustments that they could be doing for Red Mage merits right now.

The problem I have with getting something "right now" is that it'd be a band aid on a bullet wound. The merits simply don't do much for the job and thus need to be replaced. I don't think anyone on these forums actually disagrees with that. I also fear getting something "right now" would be used as an excuse to not redo the merits for the job. If SE is going to clean up the mess, I expect them to clean it up the right way and not take shortcuts to get one of the two camps to shup up.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I would love a trait for Convert that reduces the HP cost while still granting the same MP. Similar to DRK's Soul Eater one. Would be nice for the same potency and only loosing half HP.

While the gimp on Subjob is the dangerous levels on HP loss.

[Economizer]

Hmm... taking this one step at a time would probably work best. There's a lot of work to be done, but they got to start somewhere.
Convert Recast merits lowering recast by 60 seconds (from 20 seconds) would allow RDM to use Convert every 5 minutes versus 10 minutes on subjobs, which seems neither overpowered nor imbalanced. If anything, it's more in line with JAs on other (sub)jobs.

My thoughts exactly about them taking one step at a time, I already commented very early in this thread with suggestions that fit, although Convert might not exactly be in the cards, I'll give more thoughts for it in a moment.

I would love a trait for Convert that reduces the HP cost while still granting the same MP. Similar to DRK's Soul Eater one. Would be nice for the same potency and only loosing half HP.

Either of these would work as a fix, although I'm more inclined towards a job trait in general for whatever the fix is... in fact, something like reduces the MP cost so that by 99 if you have both the Mythic weapon (which should get some sort of adjustment so that converting allows your MP to go above max probably) and job traits reduce the HP cost to nil (these job traits would be 50-80ish), and then follow up with timer adjustments that in conjunction with the merits reduce the timer to five minutes (76-99).

It is a bit off topic (especially since I just said we should be focusing on merit timers like SE is), so really if we want this it should go into another thread (and if I made one it would be for adjustments to BLM/RDM/WHM/SCH in general not just Red Mage). That said, Divine Seal gets improved job traits at 50 (still not worth meriting the recast though), and Elemental Seal has some uses with Meteor (although I could see it getting an adjustment such as +Conserve MP or +Occult Accumen), I could see Convert getting some adjustments for main RDM while not trying to fix what isn't broke for /RDM.

Dia III, Bio III and Phalanx II not requiring 5/5 upgrades just to get 100% effectiveness has been suggested countless times, but I guess it can't hurt to mention it again since SE _is_ likely to look at it right now.

People shouldn't give up on trying to get more general enfeeble adjustments when SE comes to the part of their roadmap to adjust enfeebles in general (and other changes too), but definitely gonna trumpet this loud in this thread for something SE could do right now for merit/timer adjustments.

There are plenty of threads for talking job adjustments but for this one, I'd like to clearly ask SE to look into changing the duration benefits on Dia III/Bio III/Phalanx II because it is in line with their merit timer adjustments and is the right thing to do.

[Sarick]

I'm gonna say this .. Traits traits traits.

First off RDM should have the ability to be as effective with a sword or dagger equipped. There should be a trait that's like fencer on other jobs to improve, cure potency, magic accuracy, magic potency. Right now the role of enfeebler is punished because staves give us more mage benefit then the native weapons we're capable of using.

Magic Fencer, Increases Magic affinity when equipping bladed weapons dependent on the melee skill level of the weapon equipped. This allows the melee aspect without totally hurting the mage part.

As for temper: The most I think temper could get away with as self target is having an aura based effect like the avatars.

Secondly to get a slot in a party these enfeebles we're supposed to SPECIALIZE in should really hurt an enemy. When they stick they should stick hard and not have laughable effects. The enfeebles should make party leaders think this "OMG we must try and get a RDM their enfeebles will make these fights so much easier."

Right now the mentality is "OMG we must try and get a BRD/COR their buffs will make these fights so much easier." This is the cold hard truth and the main reason RDM's aren't given a spot in the harder events.

Until the enfeeble thing happens RDM is little more then a non-specialist that attempts to be everything but ends up being slightly better then something when it counts. Players can poke and prod this job until their fingers bleed. New Job abilities, gear etc. shouldn't be whats fixed. What should be fixed is making the jobs specialized abilities stand out enough that people take notice.

[Llana_Virren]

...[T]hese enfeebles we're supposed to SPECIALIZE in should really hurt an enemy. When they stick they should stick hard and not have laughable effects. The enfeebles should make party leaders think this "OMG we must try and get a RDM their enfeebles will make these fights so much easier."

Traditionally enfeebles are absolutes: Slow = Slow; Paralyze can negate any action, Silence prohibits any Spells, Amnesia (non-accessible) prohibits abilities... the reason why our enfeebles aren't of any significant use is not because they are weak enfeebles, but rather because making an NM difficult requires it to not be so easily inhibited.

Our enfeebles should have a variation to them: if they are easy to stick, they should be hard to proc, if they are easy to proc, they should be hard to stick. Not every spell should work the same way Dia (and Bio) does....

[cidbahamut]

Paralyze can negate any action

Paralyze does not affect TP moves, which is part of the problem.

[Llana_Virren]

Paralyze does not affect TP moves, which is part of the problem.

The Problem is that these Spells are absolutes. Paralyze is the only spell which "might" stop an action, but when it procs, it does stop it; Slow is a guaranteed %, Silence/Amnesia are guaranteed effects, so on and so forth.

If we want our enfeebles to actually matter, the behavior of the spells will have to change in conjunction with monster immunities/resistences.

[Duelle]

Traditionally enfeebles are absolutes: Slow = Slow; Paralyze can negate any action, Silence prohibits any Spells, Amnesia (non-accessible) prohibits abilities... the reason why our enfeebles aren't of any significant use is not because they are weak enfeebles, but rather because making an NM difficult requires it to not be so easily inhibited.

Quoting for emphasis. Someone else finally gets it.

If I were adjust enfeebling with the caveat that no new spells are actually added, I would change the following:

Paralyze: Attack Down, Accuracy Down and random chance of preventing an action. Attack down effect stacks with Bio, Accuracy Down effect stacks with Blind. NM's are immune to the chance of preventing an action.

Silence: Magic Attack Down, Magic Accuracy Down and prevents the use of magic for duration of effect. NM's are immune to the "prevents use of magic".

Bio and Dia can now affect the same mob.

It's not much, but it would be a good start, IMO.

[Llana_Virren]

[Some good stuff]

I don't see why Dia and Bio shouldn't stack, although I think that perhaps they should not be a guaranteed % of DEF/ATK down, respectively.

I'm not a big fan of adding effects to spells, because I'm more of a purist in terms of spell names versus effect. However, I think that spells should be adjusted as such:

--Paralyze Chance %: Anywhere from 3~33.33%, but take out immunity (3% Para chance is close enough to immunity, but will still give a -chance- of effectiveness).
--Silence duration: Anywhere from 5~120 seconds... let NM resistence build up over time.
--Slow %: Vary from 5%-50%; same concept as above for potency and duration.
--Sleep: Same as Silence, except (Sleep 5~60sec max, Sleep II 5~120sec max)
--Bind: No change
--Gravity: Movement Speed Reduction: -10~-40%; Evasion down -5%~-25%, conditional to potency/duration checks.
--Etc, etc

Again, the easier to land, the harder to proc; the harder to land, the higher the proc; Immunities should be elemental, not spell-based (ie. Immune to Silence should be immune to all Wind-based spells, effects, and WSs)....

At least, that's what -I- would like to see.

[Duelle]

I don't see why Dia and Bio shouldn't stack, although I think that perhaps they should not be a guaranteed % of DEF/ATK down, respectively.

I'm not a big fan of adding effects to spells, because I'm more of a purist in terms of spell names versus effect. However, I think that spells should be adjusted as such:

--Paralyze Chance %: Anywhere from 3~33.33%, but take out immunity (3% Para chance is close enough to immunity, but will still give a -chance- of effectiveness).
--Silence duration: Anywhere from 5~120 seconds... let NM resistence build up over time.
--Slow %: Vary from 5%-50%; same concept as above for potency and duration.
--Sleep: Same as Silence, except (Sleep 5~60sec max, Sleep II 5~120sec max)
--Bind: No change
--Gravity: Movement Speed Reduction: -10~-40%; Evasion down -5%~-25%, conditional to potency/duration checks.
--Etc, etc

Again, the easier to land, the harder to proc; the harder to land, the higher the proc; Immunities should be elemental, not spell-based (ie. Immune to Silence should be immune to all Wind-based spells, effects, and WSs)....

At least, that's what -I- would like to see.

I'll disagree, mostly because lack of consistency has a hand in making things undesireable. My suggestions keep the caveat in mind, while at the same time addressing the fact that enfeebles aren't exactly useful because, as you and I have been saying, they are absolutes. Having a RDM build up their enfeebles by giving enfeebles stacking effects plays on the supposed specialization of RDM while giving spells normally not used for NMs new use and value.