[dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

[Bulrogg]

Looking at the road map, ranged attack delay adjustments are coming and cheers to SE for bringing them.

I'm glad SE isn't pandering to the "only one way to skin a coeurl" school of thought, allowing for more flexibility of the job.

[Randnum]

Provoke does the same thing, and doesn't require extra gear/wasting gil.
Also: play ninja better and this wont happen on the mobs you're actually suppose to be tanking.

At this point you ARE just being obnoxious. Provoke works, sure, no disputing that, but if you never tank anything that hate resets you on NIN, and are completely sure that Sange damage (which is not even the same type of enmity) is 'worthless' in that situation, you're the one who needs to 'play Ninja better', unless you're basically saying 'you are never supposed to be tanking anything with hate reset as Ninja without help'.

[wish12oz]

At this point you ARE just being obnoxious. Provoke works, sure, no disputing that, but if you never tank anything that hate resets you on NIN, and are completely sure that Sange damage (which is not even the same type of enmity) is 'worthless' in that situation, you're the one who needs to 'play Ninja better', unless you're basically saying 'you are never supposed to be tanking anything with hate reset as Ninja without help'.

Do I really need to do the math to prove sange isn't worth using AGAIN?
Melee attacks are better than sange.
Melee attacks are better than throwing.
Melee attacks are better than the ninja elemental damage spells.
Any questions?

Also; If something has hate reset you're doing it wrong by either A. Having anyone other than a single WHM accumulating enmity with the NIN by curing the NIN, in which case 1 provoke is enough to bring the mob back to the NIN after the hate reset move or B. Not having a cotank who isn't horrible.
In which way are you doing it wrong in your example?

[Randnum]

Mk, got it, you ARE saying that playing NIN better means 'having co-tank and having no one else pulling hate on hate reset mobs'. Sorry for that, I honestly didn't think that your definition of average or substandard play was that.

Also it's in the other thread but I have already mentioned your own math doesn't show that, it shows specifically that at a certain point of multi attacks per round throwing is always outpaced by melee damage. It does not in fact show that Sange, particularly not in the moment where the enemy moves (are you really claiming there's a difference in overall shift between doing the Sange damage, and the time it takes for the enemy to get back into your melee range after the Provoke?) is not worth using.

But yes, I am completely admitting to being bad in the sense that sometimes I tank things alone and sometimes the BLM with me takes hate after a Reset because they have more hate than the BRD (note I'm not supporting Sange with THAT admission because I don't use it then, though I probably should).

Sorry for that, carry on.

[wish12oz]

Also it's in the other thread but I have already mentioned your own math doesn't show that, it shows specifically that at a certain point of multi attacks per round throwing is always outpaced by melee damage. It does not in fact show that Sange, particularly not in the moment where the enemy moves (are you really claiming there's a difference in overall shift between doing the Sange damage, and the time it takes for the enemy to get back into your melee range after the Provoke?) is not worth using.

It's not 'extra attacks' that make ranged attacks worthless, it's haste, and the way ranged attacks work. There's an inherent 2.5 second delay when committing a ranged attack beyond the actual delay of the weapon involved, add using a Job Ability on top of that and theres 4.5 seconds+weapon delay. If you want to talk about real gear and what you actually have to work with, during this 6.5~ second period of time you require to use sange, then the 2-3 seconds after where you recast utsusemi, you would of done 3x+ more damage just meleeing, and this can be easily proven, and I've done it before on these forums in other threads.

If the mob runs away think of this, provoke is used instantly and brings it back, there's an inherent 2 second delay in there, but that is the time it takes the mob to run back to you anyway. It's going to be 2 seconds before you notice the mob has run away and hit your provoke macro, and its going to take 2 seconds for it to get back to you, at this point you begin meleeing. Or, you use sange, which takes 2 seconds, then attempt to throw shurikens, which takes 4.5 seconds, and the mob is now 4+ seconds away from you, then after you throw, it will take the mob 4+ second to get back to you. I've already shown the damage potential of gimp katanas in subpar conditions in 5 seconds is 1126 damage, and we're talking about 8+ second here, gimp katanas are gonna do 1700+ damage, and good katanas under normal circumstances will be 2500+ easy. Is your sange going to come anywhere close to that considering the trash shurikens you have to work with, and the lack of room for a good ranged attack set? And you haven't even recast utsusemi yet and lost meleeing time for that.

[Darwena]

Was about to reply the same thing, but Wish12oz was faster than me. XD

Hate reset = voke. You can get a bad luck and a BLM who try to proc yellow will cast a big nuke in same time... But if you know how to play Ninja and if BLM know as well, you will voke, he will Enmity douse and thing will be ok. Even casting Hojo or Kyrayami: Ni is faster than Sange/throw. Neway, if you serious about Tank as Ninja, you surely have 1 or 2 pieces for Enmity boost for Voke macro. (Add Yonin on that and if you can't still get aggro back...)

[Bulrogg]

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war. People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

Personally I think Sange should be like Quickdraw instead of having to use the /ja and then /ra.

[vixin]

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war. People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

Personally I think Sange should be like Quickdraw instead of having to use the /ja and then /ra.

Couldn't agree anymore.

[Darwena]

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war. People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

Personally I think Sange should be like Quickdraw instead of having to use the /ja and then /ra.

Well, you said in previous post that Sange can be use to get hate, if you need hate, that mean you tank. If you tanking with another support job than /WAR, you do it wrong. He assuming ppl have /WAR cause this is pretty much the only support job to use as NIN in a Party/Ally. Don't gimme crap about /DNC. If you come in a PT with me as NIN/DNC, trust me we will ask you politely to change support job or simply come on another jobs. They are plenty ninja that pretty much know how to hold hate as Ninja and Sange isn't the solution (Even more /DNC).

Edit: beside that, if you relying on Sange to get Aggro on a unacurated /Ja (hitting with all shadows is not 100%, Ask ranger with Barrage) Vs a /ja that actually have a Accurate amount of enmity, please, don't say you are a tank...

[Bulrogg]

Perhaps you misunderstood my post?

I did not intend to imply that Sange is a great tool for hate generation in regards to tanking big events. I said "a great use for Sange is at the moment of a mobs repositioning."

In fact, I've said in the numerous threads we're not discussing Ninja tanking events. We are talking about making use of tactics that are available to a job when you are in conditions that are less than optimal. It appears as if you and 12oz are just trying to complicate things.

We have clearly agreed that /war is the best DMG and tanking /sub for Ninja.
Now, the rest of us would like to continue to discuss the updates SE has is sight for Sange and the 2012 road map. Anything else you and 12oz have to say will only be regarded as trying to provoke a problematic response.


EDIT- apparantly my spell check thought I was talking about a show from early 2000.