[dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

[Kincard]

I think you guys are looking at Sange all wrong. I don't get why people think Sange is meant as a mid-combat tool. Ever since Sange came out I've only ever thought of it as a combat opener to get a damage spike to start with. The min 5-minute timer has always made me think of it as such. Back at 75 cap I had did a few solos by opening with Sange and I thought it worked decently well.

Don't get me wrong, I think Sange is still garbage in it's current form, but under ideal conditions I'm getting that if Sange tosses 6 shurikens at once with full Ni shadows up, that would be a 1260-damage throw with capped pDIF. This is assuming Manji shurikens, IE actually achievable in-game right now...though I'd like to see a NIN cap pDIF on throwing on anything worth a damn, even with all the decent RA gear we have access to. (Though if current info are to be believed, Koga +2's augment adds a whopping +100 ratk during Sange assuming full merits)

I think if they remove the San procs in VW like they said they will (Otherwise I'll stick with NTE, thanks...), and adding cheaper shurikens that stack way higher, I don't think they would need to add something as absurd as a 500-damage shuriken like Kaerin is suggesting. Even then though, I've never thought of it as a "oh shit I just lost hate, time to Sange" ability, but rather a "They're about to pop the NM, use sange as part of my prep and open with a big throw."

That being said, if they want to make it the former I would not complain at all...having the throwing sweet spot be melee range would suggest otherwise to me. Also if you use it the way I've always thought of using it you can basically ignore the free period of throws since after you Sange you just play melee NIN like normal, no?

[wish12oz]

I think you guys are looking at Sange all wrong. I don't get why people think Sange is meant as a mid-combat tool. Ever since Sange came out I've only ever thought of it as a combat opener to get a damage spike to start with. The min 5-minute timer has always made me think of it as such. Back at 75 cap I had did a few solos by opening with Sange and I thought it worked decently well.

Can you provide the math for sange being better in this case vs just engaging, provoking and attacking?
Because I'm pretty sure I already did it, and even if I didn't I can tell you the outcome, even with the "relic shuriken" it wont be worth using.

[Randnum]

Can you provide the math for sange being better in this case vs just engaging, provoking and attacking?
Because I'm pretty sure I already did it, and even if I didn't I can tell you the outcome, even with the "relic shuriken" it wont be worth using.

I'll just point out once again that your math insists on perfect melee gear which not everyone has yet, and throwing gear is way, almost ridiculously easier to get than the level of melee gear required.

Also in your tests you have made three notable 'adjustable' errors, which bring it closer.

You're still right in terms of what you meant to prove, you just proved it under conditions you consider to be 'standard' when they are in fact 'optimal' on one side, and despite your noted and appreciated attempts to make them optimal on the other side too, not quite so.

This post is more for other people so they know you didn't actually prove 'melee always wins' you proved 'absolute best melee always wins'. Some people don't have that yet, and some people don't have time for it or aren't aiming for it.

You can fault people for THAT of course, I'll stay out of that.

[wish12oz]

Also in your tests you have made three notable 'adjustable' errors, which bring it closer.

Ranged fSTR is the only error I possibly made, and considering I counted meleeing as 0 fSTR, and gave throwing +19 as well as capped pDIF (3) compared to meleeings 2 and didn't even count aftermath on Kannagi, and counted 90 Kannagi and 99 magian elemental damage katanas as your weapons instead of 99 Kannagi..... I don't find that to be unrealistic at all. I counted using 2x 52.5 base damage weapon with 205.5 delay, and compared this to the DEVs "relic" throwing item which is double the base damage of what you're actually going to be using while throwing... after understanding this you can see your argument has no legs to stand on. The only thing that could even be considered sort of difficult to get that I used was Thaumas body, but then anyone who is any good at this game can do neo-nyzul and get it. If you can't, maybe you should heed what I say more than you do.

You're still right in terms of what you meant to prove, you just proved it under conditions you consider to be 'standard' when they are in fact 'optimal' on one side, and despite your noted and appreciated attempts to make them optimal on the other side too, not quite so.

I consider what I used to point out throwing is garbage as gimp, maybe its superamazingawesomesauce to you, but to me, its gimp.

If you want a real comparison to how horrible throwing really is, I can compare it to my WAR that has the absolute best gear possible, instead of to the meleeing damage potential of one of the worst jobs in the game, i.e. ninja.

This post is more for other people so they know you didn't actually prove 'melee always wins' you proved 'absolute best melee always wins'. Some people don't have that yet, and some people don't have time for it or aren't aiming for it.

I proved STANDARD melee set for any competent NIN does more than DOUBLE the damage the best throwing NIN can do with a "relic shuriken."

So really, why are you talking about how I'm wrong instead of doing the math yourself and SHOWING that I'm wrong? I gave you all the knowledge you need to do the math yourself, do it, post it, prove me wrong or don't say I'm wrong, because you don't know.

@Kindcard
You messed up your link, it should be:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/261001