[dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

**wish12oz** · 05-06-2012 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Wow. Lots of blah blah blah.

Recap: No one is arguing math. No one is saying Throwing is uber. What is being said is that some ninjas choose to use it.

Originally Posted by vixin

i said sange with high level shurikens do give good numbers and dmg out put.

People are arguing that throwing is good. Now stop saying they aren't.
As for Vixin, can you prove it's useful? Show me the math behind why it gives 'good numbers and dmg out put.' And then compare that to meleeing. After you manage to do that please present your findings, until then, go away because you have added nothing of value to this thread. As you yourself put it:

Originally Posted by vixin

I / L I K E / TO / S E E / Y O U ' R E / P R O O F

I've already shown why throwing is terrible, please enlighten us as to how sange is useful.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post309446

EDIT::
Seriously, everything you need to know to do the math is in the post I linked, except 1 thing, whenever you use a job ability there's a 2 second delay where meleeing stops. You have to combine this delay with the normal throwing delay that occurs to determine time required to use sange.

**vixin** · 05-07-2012 01:46 AM

your cheap invest in koga shuirkns or iga for crying out loud.
this is my sange marco:<head>Zha'go's Barbut
<body>Koga chainmail +1"with augment"
<hands> Ninja tekko +1
<legs> Byakkos haidate with crit augment
<feet> i keep in movement speed shoes due to fact i usuallly pull but i use iga to get the extra shadow
<back> Terebellum mantle
earr1> mooonshade augment based on tp
earr2> clearview earring
ring1>raja ring
ring2> bellona's ring
<neck> houyi's gorget
now for you answer no i never miss sange shots since as you can see i have hefty range acc bonus and my skill is caped at lv 99 nin dmg on mobs that ranget "Very Tough" in The Boyada tree and Gustva Tunnel is usually 934-1.3k using koga shurikens as i said befor in an earlier post i had bough 3 stacks of them off a person "how they got them i dont know your gyess is good as mine". theres my proof and the tp gain is affected by stp armor it give you 34-40 tp depends if i have stp amor marcoed in at the time and yes innin works , no dmg is still the same at 4 yalms as well at 20-23.4 yalms theres my proof.

<reedit> my sub was war and i used 5/5 sange merits to test out koga body pior to the info release on range attack bonus per merit on koga body.
103 str
139 dex
90 agi
attributes with all merits and armor combined

**wish12oz** · 05-07-2012 01:55 AM

Hearsay is not admissible, I expect math. Show me the VIT and DEF of those mobs and the damage calculations for the average Sange would do. Then repeat the process, but do it for whatever katanas you have on, and then compare the two. Don't come in here and say "I did 1200 damage to this mob." That's not going to cut it. Wanna know why? Cause I can claim anything too, watch this. "If you meleed those mobs instead of using Sange you would of done between 2,000 to 2,200 damage and gained 60 TP." See how that worked? I just made stuff up and posted it, why should it be believed at all? It's the exact same thing with your post above mine. PROVE its worth using, don't throw out random numbers and expect people to believe you.

**vixin** · 05-07-2012 02:33 AM

first of all i dotn have time to figure out snaggle tooth puks , and the other vt mobs in boyada tree the grounds tomb says level range 100-103 you can do the math since your so good at it and for katanas i have kikoku and the nte one and finally i dont count the oh wow i hit 2k sange as a awalsy i only factor in the ones that i do on average so on average i do 934-1.3k you can assume more are critical hitting due to innin than the 934 which are not and second your math figures are so misleading if i use lv 40 katanas no shit they would do less than lv 71 shurikens.

**wish12oz** · 05-07-2012 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by vixin

first of all i dotn have time to figure out snaggle tooth puks , and the other vt mobs in boyada tree the grounds tomb says level range 100-103 you can do the math since your so good at it and for katanas i have kikoku and the nte one and finally i dont count the oh wow i hit 2k sange as a awalsy i only factor in the ones that i do on average so on average i do 934-1.3k

You're eyeballing this. Use a parser and do it 5000 times and post the parse or do the math.

Originally Posted by vixin

you can assume more are critical hitting due to innin than the 934 which are not and second your math figures are so misleading if i use lv 40 katanas no shit they would do less than lv 71 shurikens.

Lvl 40 Katanas would actually beat the "relic shuriken" the DEVs spoke of.

If you don't have time to figure it out the mob stats for those puks, then don't use them. Pick arbitrary mob stats and use that. Let's say the mob has 100 VIT, and is lvl 99 and has 400 defense. OK? Now do the math and prove sange is worth using on this mob. Hell, you can even give it the piercing bonus of +25% damage puks would get throwing shurikens at them that katanas wouldn't get because they're slashing damage, it doesn't matter, because katanas will still win.

**vixin** · 05-07-2012 04:02 AM

lol no one is saying shurikens are to be used as an alterntive to dual wield you are just to headstrong to actually consider that shuriknes are good for pulling since you get futher range than provoke they are faster than a bow and gun, and the use of sange allow a decent chunk of tp and dmg to be used every 5min that is how shurikens are used. now we wait to see you with yoru dumbfound look and give another paragragh for why dual weild makes you epeen over 3 football stadiums long since there is many ways to play nin many armor options your not 100% correct but you are 100% adivocate for everything you do.

**wish12oz** · 05-07-2012 04:08 AM

Just to shut you up cause I tire of this boring conversation and you can't figure out how to do the math anyway.
It takes 2~ seconds to cast utsusemi ni, 2~ seconds to use a job ability and in the previous post we determined the time required to make a throwing attack with shurikens is 4.59 seconds.
2+2+4.59 = 8.59 seconds, for 5(?) throwing attacks worth of damage and TP gain.
Koga shuriken is 88 damage, if the mob has 100 VIT and your base STR is 100 (close enough) it looks like you add 15 STR, so this will give you 3 fSTR, we'll just say you're using good food and berserk as well, since you got warrior on sub, this should put your attack around 900 and give you a pDIF of around 2.25
(88+3)*2.25=204.75 damage per throw, 5.5 tp per throw.
1023.75 damage per sange, 27.5 tp per sange, if all 5 hit connect

We already determined the real delay of a 210 and 201 katana to be 2.88 attacks every 2.02 seconds.
I have no idea what katanas youre claiming to be using outside of Kikoku, which I assume is 95 forever, so we'll use 95 kikoku and a generic 51 damage/201 delay lvl 99 magian katana.
so 60 and 51 base damage, the average middle ground is 55.5.
Looking at the TP set I posted, we see +21 STR. This gives us 5 fSTR. Attack value is going to be slightly less for the tp set, but should cap pDIF for 1 handed melee at 2 regardless.
(55.5+5)*2=121 damage per katana hit
121*2.88=348.48 damage and 12.96 tp every 2.02 seconds using your katanas.

So we'll take the shuriken time and dive it by the katanas time
8.59/2.02=4.2524
So if we multiple every melee value by 4.2524 we can determine melee damage and tp gain during the time it takes to use sange.
348.48*4.2524=1482.05
12.96*4.2524=55.111

So lets see here, actually using sange is:
1023 damage 27.5 tp
Meleeing with your 95 Kikoku and 99 Magian offhand is:
1482 damage 55.1 tp

LOOKS LIKE MELEEING WINS AGAIN.
I didn't even account for the hidden extra damage procs on kikoku and it's STILL WINNING.
now go away.

**wish12oz** · 05-07-2012 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by vixin

lol no one is saying shurikens are to be used as an alterntive to dual wield you are just to headstrong to actually consider that shuriknes are good for pulling since you get futher range than provoke they are faster than a bow and gun, and the use of sange allow a decent chunk of tp and dmg to be used every 5min that is how shurikens are used.

running for an extra 1-2 seconds to be in range of provoke, then running back 1-2 seconds to where you would be standing if you used sange is faster than stopping for 1 second so the server registers you stopped moving, and you dont get the 'moved and interrupted aim' message, then waiting 4.59 seconds to use a throwing attack.

Since I know you can't count, thats 2-4 seconds to provoke, and 5.69 seconds for throwing. Provoke is faster.

And since standing around using sange is time you could be spending back at camp and meleeing, it comes back to the meleeing does more damage in the time it takes to use sange than using sange does.

Are you going to tell me a time when shurikens are useful yet? Cause I'm still not seeing it.

**Darwena** · 05-07-2012 08:57 AM

That still a lot of gear to bring to only use a job ability every 5 min...

**Nala** · 05-07-2012 09:24 AM

Might as well give up wish, even with all that they will insist and persist, that's why they post about throwing and sange in 4+ other threads besides this one, for any one with half a brain they can follow what you have said, for every one else, you're bashing your head against a brick wall and making no headway.

Thread: [dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

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