[dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

[Bulrogg]

As is, it is flawed. Look at the road map. Ranged attack delay adjustments.

Albeit hopeful thinking but it looks like SE is serious about this aspect of Ninja. I look forward to seeing what they have mapped out.

[hideka]

dude, relic suriken, relic bullet, relic arrow, relic bolt. infinite uses. now.

[Bulrogg]

Looking at the road map, ranged attack delay adjustments are coming and cheers to SE for bringing them.

I'm glad SE isn't pandering to the "only one way to skin a coeurl" school of thought, allowing for more flexibility of the job.

[wish12oz]

Looking at the road map, ranged attack delay adjustments are coming and cheers to SE for bringing them.

I'm glad SE isn't pandering to the "only one way to skin a coeurl" school of thought, allowing for more flexibility of the job.

Unfortunately for you, SE does think there's only one way to skin a coeurl as they've announced they're fundamentally changing the way ranged attacks work, which is what I've said needs to be done all along to make them even remotely useful. As for if it proves to be successful or a waste of time, we will have to wait and see, but I'd bet money on it still not being useful and not changing anything about the flexibility of NIN since SE has repeatedly shown they know nothing of the mechanics of their game. The "relic shuriken" is just the most recent example of this.

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war.

Good players are always subbing warrior on NIN, unless they're just moving their character around a bit to do random stuff and are subbing BLM for warp.

People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available.

Want me to do math to show Sange shouldn't be used even when you don't have provoke? Look at my previous post, and wherever you see "Provoke" switch that to "Kurayami: Ni" Casting Kurayami: Ni will do the same thing Provoke would, and bring the mob back to you so you can melee and do more damage than some gimp ranged JA you seem to be so obsessed with.

People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

People using subjobs other than /WAR leads to SE making changes to the game mechanics for ranged attacks. Is this seriously what you just said? If anything is making SE change the mechanics of ranged attacks it's everything I've ever posted about them and why they're so horrible combined with the gimps crying because they want to waste gil and lose more inventory.

I did not intend to imply that Sange is a great tool for hate generation in regards to tanking big events. I said "a great use for Sange is at the moment of a mobs repositioning."

And I just proved it's not useful for that either, so stop trying to say it is now.

In fact, I've said in the numerous threads we're not discussing Ninja tanking events. We are talking about making use of tactics that are available to a job when you are in conditions that are less than optimal. It appears as if you and 12ozmouse are just trying to complicate things.

It's funny how the only thing you have to fall back on is name calling. But seriously, I proved Sange isn't useful for anything at all. You can stop trying to say it is now.

We have clearly agreed that /war is the best DMG and tanking /sub for Ninja.
Now, the rest of us would like to continue to discuss the updates SE has is sight for Sange and the 2012 road map. Anything else you and 12oz have to say will only be regarded as trying to provoke a problematic response.

The way I see it, you're the only one here resorting to name calling and trying to start a fight. All I've done up to this point is respond with answers about game mechanics and how they work. If you think that's trying to start a fight you have some serious issues. Well, I guess my "I like detectives" comment could maybe be seen as mean spirited, but that doesn't change the fact that I was saying the truth about how poor someones ability to convey their thoughts is, and speaking the truth isn't the wrong thing to do, ever.

i think above all should shurikens become as good as they were in the past people are weiry of the money they would be investing i think above all. If that is the case most mats im sure would be easy to obtain and finding a cafter to assist wwhould not be hard.

When you say shurikens were good at some point, I can only pray you mean at low levels, because they were never good at any other point in time.

You're wrong, people don't care about gil, gil is easy to make, the problem with throwing should it be worth using is the new gear set you will have to carry around. A good NIN already has a few TP sets, a few WS sets, PDT set, MDT set, maybe an evasion set, tools, tool bags, proc weapons, foods, echo drops, other meds. Adding a quiver of shurikens, the stack of shurikens you're currently using, and a set of ranged attack gear for when you easily cap acc, and a set for when you need lots of acc is going to be a major hindrance to good ninjas, and is the main reason shurikens actually need to do MORE damage than katanas to be useful. If they do the same amount of damage, or less damage, it won't be worth the gil or inventory to have them around.

What makes you think any new shurikens SE adds will even be remotely reasonable to acquire? Is it their track record for adding shurikens that are reasonable acquire? lol....

[Randnum]

Mk, got it, you ARE saying that playing NIN better means 'having co-tank and having no one else pulling hate on hate reset mobs'. Sorry for that, I honestly didn't think that your definition of average or substandard play was that.

Also it's in the other thread but I have already mentioned your own math doesn't show that, it shows specifically that at a certain point of multi attacks per round throwing is always outpaced by melee damage. It does not in fact show that Sange, particularly not in the moment where the enemy moves (are you really claiming there's a difference in overall shift between doing the Sange damage, and the time it takes for the enemy to get back into your melee range after the Provoke?) is not worth using.

But yes, I am completely admitting to being bad in the sense that sometimes I tank things alone and sometimes the BLM with me takes hate after a Reset because they have more hate than the BRD (note I'm not supporting Sange with THAT admission because I don't use it then, though I probably should).

Sorry for that, carry on.

[wish12oz]

Also it's in the other thread but I have already mentioned your own math doesn't show that, it shows specifically that at a certain point of multi attacks per round throwing is always outpaced by melee damage. It does not in fact show that Sange, particularly not in the moment where the enemy moves (are you really claiming there's a difference in overall shift between doing the Sange damage, and the time it takes for the enemy to get back into your melee range after the Provoke?) is not worth using.

It's not 'extra attacks' that make ranged attacks worthless, it's haste, and the way ranged attacks work. There's an inherent 2.5 second delay when committing a ranged attack beyond the actual delay of the weapon involved, add using a Job Ability on top of that and theres 4.5 seconds+weapon delay. If you want to talk about real gear and what you actually have to work with, during this 6.5~ second period of time you require to use sange, then the 2-3 seconds after where you recast utsusemi, you would of done 3x+ more damage just meleeing, and this can be easily proven, and I've done it before on these forums in other threads.

If the mob runs away think of this, provoke is used instantly and brings it back, there's an inherent 2 second delay in there, but that is the time it takes the mob to run back to you anyway. It's going to be 2 seconds before you notice the mob has run away and hit your provoke macro, and its going to take 2 seconds for it to get back to you, at this point you begin meleeing. Or, you use sange, which takes 2 seconds, then attempt to throw shurikens, which takes 4.5 seconds, and the mob is now 4+ seconds away from you, then after you throw, it will take the mob 4+ second to get back to you. I've already shown the damage potential of gimp katanas in subpar conditions in 5 seconds is 1126 damage, and we're talking about 8+ second here, gimp katanas are gonna do 1700+ damage, and good katanas under normal circumstances will be 2500+ easy. Is your sange going to come anywhere close to that considering the trash shurikens you have to work with, and the lack of room for a good ranged attack set? And you haven't even recast utsusemi yet and lost meleeing time for that.

[Darwena]

Was about to reply the same thing, but Wish12oz was faster than me. XD

Hate reset = voke. You can get a bad luck and a BLM who try to proc yellow will cast a big nuke in same time... But if you know how to play Ninja and if BLM know as well, you will voke, he will Enmity douse and thing will be ok. Even casting Hojo or Kyrayami: Ni is faster than Sange/throw. Neway, if you serious about Tank as Ninja, you surely have 1 or 2 pieces for Enmity boost for Voke macro. (Add Yonin on that and if you can't still get aggro back...)

[Bulrogg]

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war. People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

Personally I think Sange should be like Quickdraw instead of having to use the /ja and then /ra.

[vixin]

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war. People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

Personally I think Sange should be like Quickdraw instead of having to use the /ja and then /ra.

Couldn't agree anymore.

[Darwena]

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war. People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

Personally I think Sange should be like Quickdraw instead of having to use the /ja and then /ra.

Well, you said in previous post that Sange can be use to get hate, if you need hate, that mean you tank. If you tanking with another support job than /WAR, you do it wrong. He assuming ppl have /WAR cause this is pretty much the only support job to use as NIN in a Party/Ally. Don't gimme crap about /DNC. If you come in a PT with me as NIN/DNC, trust me we will ask you politely to change support job or simply come on another jobs. They are plenty ninja that pretty much know how to hold hate as Ninja and Sange isn't the solution (Even more /DNC).

Edit: beside that, if you relying on Sange to get Aggro on a unacurated /Ja (hitting with all shadows is not 100%, Ask ranger with Barrage) Vs a /ja that actually have a Accurate amount of enmity, please, don't say you are a tank...