[dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

[Kincard]

I think you guys are looking at Sange all wrong. I don't get why people think Sange is meant as a mid-combat tool. Ever since Sange came out I've only ever thought of it as a combat opener to get a damage spike to start with. The min 5-minute timer has always made me think of it as such. Back at 75 cap I had did a few solos by opening with Sange and I thought it worked decently well.

Don't get me wrong, I think Sange is still garbage in it's current form, but under ideal conditions I'm getting that if Sange tosses 6 shurikens at once with full Ni shadows up, that would be a 1260-damage throw with capped pDIF. This is assuming Manji shurikens, IE actually achievable in-game right now...though I'd like to see a NIN cap pDIF on throwing on anything worth a damn, even with all the decent RA gear we have access to. (Though if current info are to be believed, Koga +2's augment adds a whopping +100 ratk during Sange assuming full merits)

I think if they remove the San procs in VW like they said they will (Otherwise I'll stick with NTE, thanks...), and adding cheaper shurikens that stack way higher, I don't think they would need to add something as absurd as a 500-damage shuriken like Kaerin is suggesting. Even then though, I've never thought of it as a "oh shit I just lost hate, time to Sange" ability, but rather a "They're about to pop the NM, use sange as part of my prep and open with a big throw."

That being said, if they want to make it the former I would not complain at all...having the throwing sweet spot be melee range would suggest otherwise to me. Also if you use it the way I've always thought of using it you can basically ignore the free period of throws since after you Sange you just play melee NIN like normal, no?

[wish12oz]

I think you guys are looking at Sange all wrong. I don't get why people think Sange is meant as a mid-combat tool. Ever since Sange came out I've only ever thought of it as a combat opener to get a damage spike to start with. The min 5-minute timer has always made me think of it as such. Back at 75 cap I had did a few solos by opening with Sange and I thought it worked decently well.

Can you provide the math for sange being better in this case vs just engaging, provoking and attacking?
Because I'm pretty sure I already did it, and even if I didn't I can tell you the outcome, even with the "relic shuriken" it wont be worth using.

[Kincard]

What? Look, I didn't say it would be better, because if you read my post you would see that I think Sange is still crap in its current form. I even agree with you that it's not worth using in its current form, I was simply saying I don't understand why people use it the way they do.

But hell, I have some time, I'll play numbers a bit. Unless my info is outdated, you made a small mistake with the fSTR on the shuriken. fSTR is calculated totally differently for ranged attacks.

Using 63/192 Manji Shuriken assuming perfect conditions (Pretty much impossible, but we're theorycrafting arn't we?):
Base Damage: D + fSTR2 = 63 + (63/9 + 8)*2 = 93
pDIF: 3
93 * 3 = 279
Assuming you throw and land the entire Sange:
279 * 6 = 1674

Now do it with the 146 DMG "relic shuriken" (I agree that a "relic shuriken" should be better than that, but I think your estimate of it needing to be 400 DMG is absurd).

(146 + (146/9 + 8)*2)*3*6 = 3492 damage.

It is, of course, unreasonable to assume the numbers will consistently hit that, which is why I said I agree with you that Sange is currently shit.

Let's assume dSTR is 0, pDIF is 2, and you hit with 3 shuriken.
146*2*3 = 876
If they end up making those 102 DMG shurikens for 99s, the same fSTR2, pDIF and number of shuriken hitting would get you 612 damage.

With the delay, here's where I run into a bit of confusion- like I said above, the sweet spot for throwing is melee range anyway, why would you bother counting the final 1.1s? Count it if you want, I suppose, but there's no reason you wouldn't just swap back into your melee gear right afterwards and just fall into playing melee NIN the rest of the fight. If you remove that (feel free to argue your side on this one), you get ~1.73 katana rounds for every throw you do, which comes out to 523 damage based on the gimp katanas you listed earlier.

Look, I know this doesn't prove Sange is worth anything at the moment, all I'm saying is that your estimate of a shuriken needing to have 400 DMG for it to be useful, even under the current system, is absurd. If they end up adjusting ranged delay so that it isn't pants-on-head retarded I'm not sure it's not worth it to use Sange as a combat opener at all.

[wish12oz]

With the delay, here's where I run into a bit of confusion- like I said above, the sweet spot for throwing is melee range anyway, why would you bother counting the final 1.1s?

The wiki said you cant make melee attacks til after that period of time has ended.

fSTR, maybe, I didn't bother to look at the ranged fSTR to see if it was different.

For the meleeing side you need to count TP and divide it into WS damage as well, and also take into consideration time. If a mob is coming towards you, and you use sange > throw > engage its going to be a much longer span of time than provoke > engage until you start meleeing. The extra time where the puller is getting hit or is running past you is whats going to kill sange use in this way and make it not useful. Not that I can think of any time when pulling is even useful lol. All I can think of is things like Tunga or Zipacna, where the puller is going to be running past you to try and dump aggro on everything else, which would absolutely kill sange use. Puller is running back with mob > you use sange, it gets in range you start throwing > it runs past you > you hit or miss(on misses you voke) then it runs runs back to you > you engage and start attacking. Compared to puller is coming back with mobs > you voke when its in range and then engage > weapons are out and hitting as soon as it gets to you. Sange needs to do more damage than just meleeing in that time span where you could be meleeing for it to be worth using, and even without the 2 seconds JA delay, it won't be able to make up the difference. If it ends up doing about the same or less damage then carrying around shurikens ends up being a waste of inventory, inventory -8 or more for a throwing set and some shurikens is just not going to be an intelligent thing to have if it doesn't put out better numbers.

[Bulrogg]

I'm still pulling for Sange to be changed to an instant ability like Quick Draw as a way to combat the delay that comes from using the ability and then having to make a /ra. Maybe SE can chime in on what they think when they get to the ranged delay attack adjustment part of the road map.

[wish12oz]

I'm still pulling for Sange to be changed to an instant ability like Quick Draw as a way to combat the delay that comes from using the ability and then having to make a /ra. Maybe SE can chime in on what they think when they get to the ranged delay attack adjustment part of the road map.

That would of worked well to at least make it useful if higher damage shurikens were obtainable at some point, but merits have already been changed, so I wouldn't hold my breathe waiting for this to happen.

[Randnum]

Can you provide the math for sange being better in this case vs just engaging, provoking and attacking?
Because I'm pretty sure I already did it, and even if I didn't I can tell you the outcome, even with the "relic shuriken" it wont be worth using.

I'll just point out once again that your math insists on perfect melee gear which not everyone has yet, and throwing gear is way, almost ridiculously easier to get than the level of melee gear required.

Also in your tests you have made three notable 'adjustable' errors, which bring it closer.

You're still right in terms of what you meant to prove, you just proved it under conditions you consider to be 'standard' when they are in fact 'optimal' on one side, and despite your noted and appreciated attempts to make them optimal on the other side too, not quite so.

This post is more for other people so they know you didn't actually prove 'melee always wins' you proved 'absolute best melee always wins'. Some people don't have that yet, and some people don't have time for it or aren't aiming for it.

You can fault people for THAT of course, I'll stay out of that.

[Kincard]

Actually, if we're talking about the current situation specifically, even a really hastily thrown-together AH/solofarmed gear NIN should be able to exceed the type of numbers Sange is currently realistically able to put out on a regular basis using Manji Shuriken. Even if they didn't it still really isn't worth it to waste space on a RA set:

I'll just throw together a set quickly even a really casual player could have- note that most players would probably wish they could choke you through their modem if they saw you wearing this stuff fighting anything serious. I don't think the items I put in this set are unreasonable at all:

http://www.ffxiah.com/members/item-sets?id=261001
45 base damage
387 base delay
22% haste
Dual Wield +10

45*2=90
18% DA
So 2.18 attacks per round.
2.18*90=196.2

I'll be lazy and just use 22+15% for haste assuming you have white magic on you.
45% Total DW.
387*0.63*0.55=134.0955
123.0955/59=2.27s per round

If we take the same assumptions Kaerin made for throwing one shuriken earlier, you deal 396.72 damage in the time to throw the shuriken. Let's also say you get 20%TP, and let's say you do 800 damage on a WS (Jin or Shun I guess). That's 160 damage for a total of 556.72 damage, which is almost as much as the damage done by a relic shuriken. Considering how commonplace the gear I've chosen is, this really isn't an acceptable state.

Though, really, how would they make a relic shuriken anyway? I guess it could be dispensed like some of the RNG arrows/bolts, but then they would need to make it dispense at least a stack a day or something. But if they actually made it like that then Kaerin's suggestion of like, 450 DMG IS reasonable because I can swing a Kikoku or Kannagi all day, and I can't say the same for some relic shuriken. Hell, I probably wouldn't bother (if we're talking about it being about as difficult to get as any other relic) even if it had 500 base damage.

So yeah, I'm putting my hopes in the ranged attack delay adjustment they plan on doing. I expect to be disappointed, honestly.

[wish12oz]

Also in your tests you have made three notable 'adjustable' errors, which bring it closer.

Ranged fSTR is the only error I possibly made, and considering I counted meleeing as 0 fSTR, and gave throwing +19 as well as capped pDIF (3) compared to meleeings 2 and didn't even count aftermath on Kannagi, and counted 90 Kannagi and 99 magian elemental damage katanas as your weapons instead of 99 Kannagi..... I don't find that to be unrealistic at all. I counted using 2x 52.5 base damage weapon with 205.5 delay, and compared this to the DEVs "relic" throwing item which is double the base damage of what you're actually going to be using while throwing... after understanding this you can see your argument has no legs to stand on. The only thing that could even be considered sort of difficult to get that I used was Thaumas body, but then anyone who is any good at this game can do neo-nyzul and get it. If you can't, maybe you should heed what I say more than you do.

You're still right in terms of what you meant to prove, you just proved it under conditions you consider to be 'standard' when they are in fact 'optimal' on one side, and despite your noted and appreciated attempts to make them optimal on the other side too, not quite so.

I consider what I used to point out throwing is garbage as gimp, maybe its superamazingawesomesauce to you, but to me, its gimp.

If you want a real comparison to how horrible throwing really is, I can compare it to my WAR that has the absolute best gear possible, instead of to the meleeing damage potential of one of the worst jobs in the game, i.e. ninja.

This post is more for other people so they know you didn't actually prove 'melee always wins' you proved 'absolute best melee always wins'. Some people don't have that yet, and some people don't have time for it or aren't aiming for it.

I proved STANDARD melee set for any competent NIN does more than DOUBLE the damage the best throwing NIN can do with a "relic shuriken."

So really, why are you talking about how I'm wrong instead of doing the math yourself and SHOWING that I'm wrong? I gave you all the knowledge you need to do the math yourself, do it, post it, prove me wrong or don't say I'm wrong, because you don't know.

@Kindcard
You messed up your link, it should be:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/261001

[Akujima]

Gahahaha.... Remember me?


Still at it, eh guys? Poor Vixen, now he/she is the punching bag for your super fast melee swings.