Voidwatch Final Chapter

[Karbuncle]

(I use the word "you" a lot, Its not meaning "YOU" directly, But as a general term for the playerbase, So don't take it personally Helel, None of it is intended as a direct insult to you)

Why go THF at all though? You're just gimping the rest of the alliance when you could be going a more useful job. Don't get me wrong, I bring THFs every now and then, but it's only to fill a gap if I really can't find anyone else.

THF is ultimately useless as a whole, Luckily in voidwatch, Killspeed is never a do or die factor, and I tend to go with people who don't suck, therefor we can afford to bring a THF and not fail like a sack of crap like most of the mediocre groups do. In most occasion, I'm on SMN though, Which i don't mind, Because it has more procs.

If bringing 1 THF in place of say, a WAR, is causing your groups to fail, your groups suck beyond the help of what 1 more WAR would give, and theres no fixing that.

Still that said, Theres a lot of useless jobs in Voidwatch that you could bring a long cause it doesn't much matter. Theres some fights where I won't come THF (Botulus, Bismarck) Because I'm just not going to overcome their ridiculous def and over-all just be a waste of a spot, however, on most Voidwatch, T1-3 Jeuno, Etc, Basically anything pre-99 Cap, Only a moron would worry about Perfecting party spots, when in reality, all you have to do is cover basic procs, and fill the rest of the alliance with filler DD who aren't complete retards.

THF Is really no slouch on DD, Its not going to keep up with a good WAR or SAM, But if its the deciding factor on winning vs losing, I think you should look at the rest of your group and seriously consider why you suck so bad that bringing a THF is going to make you fail a run, and spend less time blaming the THF.

That said, Would like to mention, I own Mandau, and a Mandau THF/WAR will wreck a good chunk of DD Short of Empyrean/Relic WAR/DRG/DRK/SAM (I.E the heavier DDs).

The job is definitely second place, but unless Killspeed is Do or Die, Like in Neo-Nyzul, Its something that shouldn't be considered a Nail-in-the-coffin. Problem with THF is that its a very high-maintenance job. Requires a lot of work to break into the middle of the dd "Pack". So inviting a THF is really a gamble.

Again, on some voidwatch fights, its better to avoid THF.. Botulus, Bismarck, the really high-DEF / Phys Resistant ones, Its a dead job there. But on the lower tier stuff (Again, Really anything pre-99 Cap), only a fool would think THF is going to kill the run.

[Duelle]

If bringing 1 THF in place of say, a WAR, is causing your groups to fail, your groups suck beyond the help of what 1 more WAR would give, and there's no fixing that.

Considering the design approach, gearing and "high maintenance" as you put it, I don't see how you are pining the blame on something other than the way THF (in this case) is designed. That'd be like me saying a group bringing a melee RDM is wiping because the group sucks and is not fault of RDM's lacking melee model and dependency on buffs.

Maybe it's because I've been in those situations where that one spot makes the difference (not in FFXI, but the worries and outcomes are the same regardless of game), but the concerns are warranted. VW's approach supports DPS races, which carries implications that negatively affect certain jobs.

[Karbuncle]

Considering the design approach, gearing and "high maintenance" as you put it, I don't see how you are pining the blame on something other than the way THF (in this case) is designed.

Hi, You must be new here. let me introduce myself. I'm the one man campaign for "Thief sucks and is a dead job thats completely backseat and worthless to just about every other job".

Nice to meet you.

That'd be like me saying a group bringing a melee RDM is wiping because the group sucks and is not fault of RDM's lacking melee model and dependency on buffs.

I'm going to go with "no", Unless sometime recently THF became a buffer. THF brings nothing to the table that will win or lose a fight. Its neither useful, nor important enough to cause a group to wipe, Like say, Not hasting or curing would. Decent analogy, But not even remotely close.

Maybe it's because I've been in those situations where that one spot makes the difference (not in FFXI, but the worries and outcomes are the same regardless of game), but the concerns are warranted. VW's approach supports DPS races, which carries implications that negatively affect certain jobs.

I'm going to refer you once again to my first sentence. Maybe you ignored everything I said regarding how i feel THF is useless, high maintenance, and very difficult to gear or even properly utilize to even become a half-mediocre DD, but absolutely nothing i said should have given you the Idea that i somehow thought THF should be used in voidwatch.

My point, Which i blame only myself for not making it clear enough, is that a single Thief should never make or break an entire alliance in a Voidwatch event. Theres just absolutely no conceivable reason why it could happen. Unless he did something stupid like, AoE the adds And MPK the group. THF is not a buffer, They're a mediocre DD. If you're losing, Its not just the Thief, The idea is, its all of the mediocre DD you have. Just because it says "WAR99" doesn't mean its dealing damage.

What I was trying to convey was, Replacing a WAR with a THF shouldn't cause you to fail unless the rest of your group is so slacking that extra umph was the win. In which case, You need to re-evaluate your Alliance structure before you point fingures at the THF. The THF is likely a wasted spot, But he would not be the entire problem, and any group worth their oxygen could stand to have a THF in their alliance.

Hopefully, Repeating myself in circles (I know i did), Explained it a little clearer. Sorry!

[Helel]

Hi, You must be new here. let me introduce myself. I'm the one man campaign for "Thief sucks and is a dead job thats completely backseat and worthless to just about every other job".

Nice to meet you.



I'm going to go with "no", Unless sometime recently THF became a buffer. THF brings nothing to the table that will win or lose a fight. Its neither useful, nor important enough to cause a group to wipe, Like say, Not hasting or curing would. Decent analogy, But not even remotely close.



I'm going to refer you once again to my first sentence. Maybe you didn't read, Or just ignored everything I said regarding how i feel THF is useless, high maintenance, and very difficult to gear or even properly utilize to even become a half-mediocre DD, but absolutely nothing i said should have given you the Idea that i somehow thought THF should be used in voidwatch.

My point, Which i blame only myself for not making it clear enough, is that a single Thief should never make or break an entire alliance in a Voidwatch event. Theres just absolutely no conceivable reason why it could happen. Unless he did something stupid like, AoE the adds And MPK the group. THF is not a buffer, They're a mediocre DD. If you're losing, Its not just the Thief, The idea is, its all of the mediocre DD you have. Just because it says "WAR99" doesn't mean its dealing damage.

What I was trying to convey was, Replacing a WAR with a THF shouldn't cause you to fail unless the rest of your group is so slacking that extra umph was the win. In which case, You need to re-evaluate your Alliance structure before you point fingures at the THF. The THF is likely a wasted spot, But he would not be the entire problem, and any group worth their oxygen could stand to have a THF in their alliance.

Hopefully, Repeating myself in circles (I know i did), Explained it a little clearer. Sorry!

I agree with you, and I have no problems inviting a THF if I'm having trouble finding other people to join. I will always invite another DD job over a THF though, and I honestly hate being biased like that, but a shitty geared SAM can at least do "some" damage, while a shitty THF is probably hitting for 0 and doing absolutely nothing. It sucks, but I'm not willing to take the risk unless I know the THF is good at their job. Same goes for DNC.

[Duelle]

I'm going to go with "no", Unless sometime recently THF became a buffer. THF brings nothing to the table that will win or lose a fight. Its neither useful, nor important enough to cause a group to wipe, Like say, Not hasting or curing would. Decent analogy, But not even remotely close.

Containing my own degree of sarcasm, you don't seem to understand the concept of a DPS race. If there's a DPS race, that means killing the mob ASAP is top priority, which means you need the jobs/classes that yield the most DPS because otherwise something bad happens. Here it's "temps wear off between procs, mob does super damage, everyone dies" (*where applicable). Elsewhere it'd be "mob reaches rage timer, everyone dies". Same difference.

Maybe you didn't read, Or just ignored everything I said regarding how i feel THF is useless, high maintenance, and very difficult to gear or even properly utilize to even become a half-mediocre DD, but absolutely nothing i said should have given you the Idea that i somehow thought THF should be used in voidwatch.

So which is it? THF should be fixed and be useful and be brought to events like voidwatch? Or THF be the "wasted" slot that has to be carried (even if its by a little bit) by the rest of the alliance? I may not be a THF main, but I'd be hoping for the former.

Either way, I find it odd that you are outspoken in the uselessness of THF yet don't see any drive to see it corrected. Figured we'd be on the same boat for our respective jobs.

[Karbuncle]

Containing my own degree of sarcasm, you don't seem to understand the concept of a DPS race. If there's a DPS race, that means killing the mob ASAP is top priority, which means you need the jobs/classes that yield the most DPS because otherwise something bad happens. Here it's "temps wear off between procs, mob does super damage, everyone dies" (*where applicable). Elsewhere it'd be "mob reaches rage timer, everyone dies". Same difference.
So which is it? THF should be fixed and be useful and be brought to events like voidwatch? Or THF be the "wasted" slot that has to be carried (even if its by a little bit) by the rest of the alliance? I may not be a THF main, but I'd be hoping for the former.

You simply don't seem to grasp the idea of me saying that if About 4000 HP Worth of Damage over the course of the entire fight is causing your group to wipe, the issue doesn't begin with the THF. Voidwatch isn't a "DPS Race" unless you got a hot date and need to finish fast. There hasn't been a single fight I've ever done in voidwatch since its been released where i can even close to running out of time.

Speed is nothing but a luxury in Voidwatch**(Read Spoiler Below), Again, Unless your group sucks, and i redirect you to my original point. If time is such a factor in your fights 1 THF is going to ruin it, You need to re-evaluate your entire alliance before you try to pit the blame on 1 job. Because there should never be a time or situation where a single THF in place of a better DD Should be the determining Factor in winning or losing a battle.

Being caught in a situation where your entire alliance is wiping due to no fanatics and a bad placed TP move should be very rare. if you honestly think the difference between winning and losing in a situation where you run out of Temp items is another WAR, you're grasping for straws to try and maintain this incorrect assumption that 1 THF in an alliance is going to be the harbinger of doom.

In fact, having those Extra Dagger procs would be more beneficial in that situation than another WAR, because that means if Dagger proc came up, Theres that chance you'd be able to hit it. Or now, Bully.

You're wrong here, Theres no easy way to put that. I don't deny THF is a wasted spot, It has no use outside of Dagger procs and Bully, which is small and maybe you've lost the original discussion, but my only argument with you is the idea 1 single THF replacing a WAR/better DD is somehow going to cause a failed run. Which is just absurd to the point I have to assume you're trolling hard.

So which is it? THF should be fixed and be useful and be brought to events like voidwatch? Or THF be the "wasted" slot that has to be carried (even if its by a little bit) by the rest of the alliance? I may not be a THF main, but I'd be hoping for the former.

What? I know Its a Wasted slot in pretty much all new events. Legion its got 1 spot because Treasure Hunter actually matters there. THF Is useless where Treasure Hunter has no lease. Its not that I don't want the job to go somewhere, I've just given up all hope it ever will.

Either way, I find it odd that you are outspoken in the uselessness of THF yet don't see any drive to see it corrected. Figured we'd be on the same boat for our respective jobs.

I had plenty of drive to see it corrected.

for eight years.

For Eight years, Every time Job Adjustments came out, Even though i had MULTIPLE jobs, the only one i cared about was THF. year after year i was disappointed by the sh*t they spewed at the job. It was an uphill battle we were never destined to win.

Theres a time you gotta step back and realize your vision of a job doesn't match Square's vision. This forum is a farce when it comes to job adjustments, Nothing we suggest will ever be implemented. Go to the THF Forums, Half of the THF suggestions will be from me, Theres a THF Compilation thread, by me. I've made countless suggestions in multiple threads.

its ignored, It will never happen. A man has his limits. I love Thief, ITs my favorite job, But i acknowledge its uses and where it fails, and i also Acknowledge SE Feels Treasure Hunter is powerful enough to keep the job from being useful in any other way. They do not want to fix the job, and they will never fix the job, Because in their eyes, it does not need fixing.

I'm just simply giving up on Square Enix ever realizing or Admitting shortcomings of that king of broken jobs. SMN is still crap, RDM is still crap, and those two really are worse off than THF. maybe if RDM and SMN get fixed, my hope for THF will re-awaken, But until then, Wont happen.

Let me explain that part better. in Voidwatch, Most groups, through procing and over-all Damage while capping lights, Can easily dispatch an Enemy with just 1 DD Party. In most if not all cases, a THF Will only replace another proc'er, So to begin with, the entire idea of replacing them with "Another DD" is stupid, Because the DD Party will already be full to the brim with the 3 best DD, 2 CORs, and a BRD, so another DD is just going to be in the scrub party.

So at best THF Would replace say, a PUP, or a BST. A Proc-job.

That logical loop-whole in this whole debate aside, Speed does determine to an extent if you win or lose, But any group worth their air kill the NM Within 15 minutes of popping or less, VW allows you i think 30 minutes, 1 THF, who should be taking a proc job spot anyway, Is not going to cause a failed run.

It just will not happen. Do you understand what I'm trying to say now? The idea THF is replacing a WAR i gave to you people even though its ludicrous to assume that, no alliance is set up with 2 DD Parties. Its all the same:

Tank/DD Party (Usually 2-3WARs, 2CORs, and a BRD (WHM perhaps too)
Mage Party (Your BLM, BLU, maybe SCH, SMN)
Proc Party (Leftovers. DRG, THF, PUP, BST, etc etc)

THF would go in the proc party, because thats what they'd be there for, Procs. They're not replacing a strong DD unless your alliance leader is a moron.

So theres two strong points to why you're wrong

1) In no Alliance worth your time investment will a THF, somehow replacing a WAR, Cause a failed run.

2) In No Alliance worth your time investment should the leader ever replace a DD-Party WAR with a THF. THF Goes in the Proccer party, and is nothing but Filler.

[Duelle]

You're wrong here, Theres no easy way to put that. I don't deny THF is a wasted spot, It has no use outside of Dagger procs and Bully, which is small and maybe you've lost the original discussion, but my only argument with you is the idea 1 single THF replacing a WAR/better DD is somehow going to cause a failed run. Which is just absurd to the point I have to assume you're trolling hard.

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to troll you. I'm speaking from my own experiences. As I said, "temps wear, super damage, everyone dies" is not that different from "mob hits rage timer, everyone dies". Either way, I'll drop this now, as the more important point lies in the below quote.

For Eight years, Every time Job Adjustments came out, Even though i had MULTIPLE jobs, the only one i cared about was THF. year after year i was disappointed by the sh*t they spewed at the job. It was an uphill battle we were never destined to win.

There's a time you gotta step back and realize your vision of a job doesn't match Square's vision. This forum is a farce when it comes to job adjustments, Nothing we suggest will ever be implemented. Go to the THF Forums, Half of the THF suggestions will be from me, Theres a THF Compilation thread, by me. I've made countless suggestions in multiple threads.

its ignored, It will never happen. A man has his limits. I love Thief, ITs my favorite job, But i acknowledge its uses and where it fails, and i also Acknowledge SE Feels Treasure Hunter is powerful enough to keep the job from being useful in any other way. They do not want to fix the job, and they will never fix the job, Because in their eyes, it does not need fixing.

I'm just simply giving up on Square Enix ever realizing or Admitting shortcomings of that king of broken jobs. SMN is still crap, RDM is still crap, and those two really are worse off than THF. maybe if RDM and SMN get fixed, my hope for THF will re-awaken, But until then, Wont happen.

I guess what separates you and I is the border between reasonable and stubborn. I wouldn't exactly call the forums a sham, though I agree that the developers seem to have returned to their castle in the clouds where us mere mortals cannot tread or reach them. I now understand your frustration, and if I were less stubborn I'd probably would have given up hope too.