[dev1102] So what is the Ultimate Spell for RDM?

[Duelle]

this is what my take was on how to fix redmage

As I mentioned in your thread, I LOVED Renew and hope the devs implement it. That one spell would make my life a lot easier and melee gameplay a lot smoother.

Well it's spilled milk now, nothing to do but move on. The real problem with SCH is that this game is too narrow with it's magic system, there simply isn't room to fit in multiple specialist jobs which leaves jobs fighting for slots. Between RDM and SCH a SCH will win on everything not melee related, the buff better, heal better and nuke better, could even enfeeble better once you consider how little difference between Slow I / II there is. SCH is the better version of "Pink Mage".

That's the downside of the Final Fantasy IP, though. Same case as it is with enfeebles. Though at the least each job should have it's own version of certain spells, if only so that spellcasting is mechanically sound rather than something that favors one job over another.

[saevel]

As I mentioned in your thread, I LOVED Renew and hope the devs implement it. That one spell would make my life a lot easier and melee gameplay a lot smoother.
That's the downside of the Final Fantasy IP, though. Same case as it is with enfeebles. Though at the least each job should have it's own version of certain spells, if only so that spellcasting is mechanically sound rather than something that favors one job over another.

Honestly I believe RDM's native FC should be redone. We should be casting spells at 2~3x the speed, not 1.5~1.6. Give RDM a JT that makes FC 3x more effective at casting (but not recast). Would at least draw a distinction between RDM and SCH.

[Duelle]

Honestly I believe RDM's native FC should be redone. We should be casting spells at 2~3x the speed, not 1.5~1.6. Give RDM a JT that makes FC 3x more effective at casting (but not recast). Would at least draw a distinction between RDM and SCH.

There's still the issue of function, which I frankly don't know how to fix outside of what some may consider arbitrary adjustments for the sake of being different.

[saevel]

There's still the issue of function, which I frankly don't know how to fix outside of what some may consider arbitrary adjustments for the sake of being different.

Unfortunately as long as FFXI retains its current magic system, then this won't really ever change. RDM was never invited for debuffs, even when they made a difference (XP vs IT). Plainly speaking, this game has too many jobs and not enough variety to make them all distinct. MMO's tend to be balanced around three types of class's / jobs, the defensive hate holding type (Tank), the offensive kill it now but with paper-thin army type (DD) and the keep us alive / make us stronger type (Support). The dev's short sightedness and refusal to admit when their wrong as lead to the complete destruction of the first type (Tank). Rampant AOE's make "tanking" worthless, what use is it holding the monsters hate on one person when everyone else within 15 feet will die anyway. The coupe de grace was the enmity system vastly favoring damage over anything else, so even the monster doesn't immediately kill everyone around the tank, the tank won't be holding hate and thus not tanking. So now we're down to 20 jobs fighting over two types of slots, (DD) and (Support) and since a hybrid like RDM isn't the best DD we're then shuffled into the support role. We're not very good at support, but support doesn't need to be very good to be useful. This is why there are those who want to see the return of "pink mage", a RDM who can support, even if at an inferior level, can still be made into something useful in super elite content.

SE needs to radically redo game mechanics to fix the class diversity issue. A short term fix for only RDM would be to make a set of powerful enfeebles, then we would actually have a specialty / function. It may not be the absolute most desired, but it would be something unique and helpful.

[Duelle]

Unfortunately as long as FFXI retains its current magic system, then this won't really ever change. RDM was never invited for debuffs, even when they made a difference (XP vs IT).

Well, debuffs work as a tertiary trait or part of a class, not as the main purpose of a class. The only real place where it sort of worked was everquest, but that was because of party and raid sizes. Secondly, stat stacking should have never been part of enfeebling. One because it plays into the mess created by gear swaps, secondly because it is such a minor facet that it should scale off one of the blanket stats for magic, or perhaps just scale with enfeebling skill (no MND or INT or any of that, and perhaps even no variances in potency short of enfeebling skill).

The dev's short sightedness and refusal to admit when their wrong has lead to the complete destruction of the first type (Tank). Rampant AOE's make "tanking" worthless, what use is it holding the monsters hate on one person when everyone else within 15 feet will die anyway. The coupe de grace was the enmity system vastly favoring damage over anything else, so even the monster doesn't immediately kill everyone around the tank, the tank won't be holding hate and thus not tanking.

The only reason damage has gotten so out of control is basically that complete avoidance has been allowed to run rampant instead of fixed when it got started. Yes, I'm once again pointing the finger to Utsusemi. If you want to keep things balanced, then yes the possibility of avoiding damage entirely leads to having to create mobs that deal a ton of damage in order to challenge and tax the healers as well as put survivability on the line.

Adding to this mess is the fact that enmity has a cap instead of constantly fluctuating. I don't know if the devs thought we would never hit the caps when they designed the basic enmity system (considering they never counted on people swapping gear mid-combat...), but that part of the game is in dire need of changes, along with role assignments for tanking. The latter would be difficult to implement, but goes hand-in-hand with what tanking is all about.

So now we're down to 20 jobs fighting over two types of slots, (DD) and (Support) and since a hybrid like RDM isn't the best DD we're then shuffled into the support role. We're not very good at support, but support doesn't need to be very good to be useful. This is why there are those who want to see the return of "pink mage", a RDM who can support, even if at an inferior level, can still be made into something useful in super elite content.

I can admit that at the time the RDM revamp took place, the shangrilla of "hybrids can choose their role if we give them mechanics for each role" had not been discovered. The changes were made back when the ideology was pretty much "just give them some heals and something parties will want, so that they'll be forced to invite the class, so we can continue playing Magic The Gathering instead of spending time/resources fixing said class".

SE needs to radically redo game mechanics to fix the class diversity issue.

I think the core of the problem is what jobs gain due to the subjob system. Even if you individually can fix each job, you still have that balancing nightmare looming over you.

What's really sad is that these sort of problems are easier to pinpoint if you play one of the "lesser" jobs. THF and SMN also suffer from several problems because of how basic class design was handled in this game. RDM just happens to be part of that club as well.

[Kristal]

What's really sad is that these sort of problems are easier to pinpoint if you play one of the "lesser" jobs. THF and SMN also suffer from several problems because of how basic class design was handled in this game. RDM just happens to be part of that club as well.

RDM has the unfortunate position of being the only job that can be subbed while retaining almost 100% of it's capabilities AND have unique features given to other jobs (Phalanx, Addle) or being rendered impotent by game design (merits, enfeebling).
Other jobs have run into similar issues, but SE stepped up to ensure uniqueness for the job by limiting subjob or making a job excel at something.

Just happens to be part of the club? RDM is the club president!

[Ophannus]

RDM could have had potential as a job that reduces damage taken by the party. If SE had let WHM focus on healing instead of giving them things like AoE Bar spells and Protectra/Shellra and Sancrocity. RDM should have been specialized to reduce damage taken by the party with Protectra/Shellra/Phalanxga/Phalanxga II/Bar spellra/Regens/Stoneskins/Blinkga etc. BRD and COR could have focused on being offensive support and WHM could be healing support; RDM should have been defensive support, instead they gave both Healing and Defensive to WHM and left RDM with meh enfeebling. If theyre gonna give us enfeebing at least give us tier 3 and tier 4 of every enfeeble.

[Llana_Virren]

We should get an Amnesia-based spell as an Enfeebling version of Stun.... that'd be a nice touch, even if it lasts only 5-10 seconds, it could be an amazing tool.