[dev1102] So what is the Ultimate Spell for RDM?

[Duelle]

As for Convert & Refresh not being lowered in potency its right, they aren't, I'm happy in a way my RDM need not cast refresh on all the mages in the party/alliance yet it also rids of some of the unique points of RDM which most jobs have nerfed unique points on them as a sub, also convert helps MP and gives much larger supplies which I would not change except perhaps making it to where half of your hp goes into MP, which would give you MP back still in a large amount wouldn't be so massive. Though it may lessen the effect of the sub-job itself would make it more balanced.

Again, MP longevity is not a bad thing. Refresh should never, ever be a "unique" aspect/point/trait of RDM. Convert is fine as is. It keeps complications and things that shouldn't have anything to do with us far away, and that's fine by me.

Obviously NMs would resist it more often but not to the extent it shouldn't be used, it should have a high rate of landing on anything with the first cast, after that NMs build resist faster than other mobs would. For instance I can use it on high level worms in Gustav Tunnel and land 2-3 times if I so choose before it would be to resisted to be worth trying, where as in VW I would cast 1 time, and from there on the chances of it landing would be spotty at best. Amnesia is one of the most potent enfeebles against players (I would say the most next to silence which we already get, and muddle which has no use how it is against anything other than players) yet we have never had access to it, the only way I know of even for a player to inflict it is through WAR using the Great-axe with it as an additional effect. So I think it is fitting for RDM to finally receive one of the most potent enfeeblings in the game, and be able to restrict not only the TP gain of an enemy (which some jobs have already, RDM should have something to itself as a ultimate spell, not something other jobs have) but to be able to prevent it over a short period of time!

Absolutes never work well for enfeebles. That's largely the reason why enfeebling is so useless in the more recent events. You can't make something not cast or use TP moves and expect it to be balanced. Now, if you gave me something that reduced damage from TP moves by 15-25%, then we might be on to something. Weakeningn a mob to the point their TP moves are weaker would be a good direction, is not an absolute and allows us to help the group without becoming a buff-whore.

That being said, I'd still prefer Red Trance over any other option.

[Demon6324236]

As it has been said, we have few things unique to RDM, I agree jobs should be able to stand on their own two legs for MP lasting but it is brought up because its one of few things we have others don't. We have the same enfeebles that BLM & WHM have if both in the same party which they obviously should be, other than our merit spells which don't always make it enough to throw a RDM in your party just because you want the slightly better para/slow/blind II. Perhaps our traits should make a larger impact over the 50-99 levels so that we have a noticeable difference from those subbing RDM, as I stated I do not think a BLM should cast faster than my RDM, unless I'm completely ignoring fast cast & -cast time, gear. As for now, the only thing that makes our buffs truly greater than that of someone using RDM as a sub is we have Composure.

And amnesia only comes to mind because its something we have seen in the game for a very long time that has limited us while we have only ever had one way to use it, through a WAR not RDM, and only with an additional effect, which I feel is wrong. If they gave us it I admit it would be nearly impossible to balance especially in abyssea for the fact everything dies so fast the duration would need to be five seconds to make the mob have a chance after it wore off.

In either case I do agree a spell weakening TP attacks for the mob would be nice while not stopping them it would give us more breathing room still. My only problem with that is would it effect perhaps TP accuracy as well? Or being able to resist additional effects? Because sometimes the effects of the attack are what kills you more than the damage itself, such as Yama's Judgment from Kalasutrax(Jeuno T6 VWNM) dooming alot of your DDs, or Pinecone Bomb from Modron(Zilart T2 VWNM) sleeping the entire party for the most part. Again might be unbalancing to think of it doing something like that because it would make some TPs by the mobs basically useless, but it is simply an idea because sometimes you don't care all to much about the damage you receive from the TP, thats the least of your worries next to doom, amnesia, weakness, muddle, death, and so on. But I think in the end RDM needs a way to effect TP more than anything because we have everything else for the most part. We can stop attacks, lower accuracy, slow them down, lower evasion, stop use of or lessen the effect of spells, but still nothing we can do about TPs. About our greatest hope in the case the enemy uses a TP attack, is that we have stun. We already stop mobs being able to hit us with normal attacks, and eliminate magic as a problem, all we need now is TP/additional effects and we will be set to enfeeble mobs so much so that (provided we land the spell) the enemy will have little to no ability to win in most cases.

[Duelle]

As it has been said, we have few things unique to RDM, I agree jobs should be able to stand on their own two legs for MP lasting but it is brought up because its one of few things we have others don't.

Which was a flaw in design and caused grief on both ends, the Red Mage for wanting his job to be meaningful and instead being shackled to Refresh-bot, and the other casters who for some reason trhe devs believed should not be self-sufficient with MP. If anything, I wish these "fixes" by making Refresh subbable had been made available sooner to the other mage jobs.

As for now, the only thing that makes our buffs truly greater than that of someone using RDM as a sub is we have Composure.

Which is fine because it supports that theme of melee mage that I keep harping on about. Remember that we're still borrowing things from the other jobs.

And amnesia only comes to mind because its something we have seen in the game for a very long time that has limited us while we have only ever had one way to use it, through a WAR not RDM, and only with an additional effect, which I feel is wrong. If they gave us it I admit it would be nearly impossible to balance especially in abyssea for the fact everything dies so fast the duration would need to be five seconds to make the mob have a chance after it wore off.

You also forget the fact that a good number of mobs, in abyssea and post-abyssea are overly reliant on TP moves. This means Amnesia would NEVER work on them because you're effectively shutting the mob down entirely.

In all honesty, Amnesia should have never been implemented the way it has been. I know the devs were looking for a way to piss off melee, to inconvenience the eventual Dancer job,and to make imps threatening foes, but other things could have been done instead of something that entirely prevents TP moves and Job Abilities.

In either case I do agree a spell weakening TP attacks for the mob would be nice while not stopping them it would give us more breathing room still. My only problem with that is would it effect perhaps TP accuracy as well? Or being able to resist additional effects? Because sometimes the effects of the attack are what kills you more than the damage itself, such as Yama's Judgment from Kalasutrax(Jeuno T6 VWNM) dooming alot of your DDs, or Pinecone Bomb from Modron(Zilart T2 VWNM) sleeping the entire party for the most part.

Could be balanced as a case by case enfeeble, or just put in a blanket rule and have it reduce damage from TP moves, reduce duration of additional effects, and so on so that the spell's purpose is to lower the effectiveness of mob TP moves by a percentage. It'd fall under spells you use to help the group mitigate damage. If you want to tack the enfeebler thing to RDM, that'd be one nice way to help drive that point home.

[Demon6324236]

Yep, and as for enemys in abyssea and post-abyssea who are overly reliant on TP moves, some (such as Ironclads) only USE TP moves, which would completly lock the enemy, then again thats what blue procing did was cause Amnesia. But now that you mention it I do agree it would be way to effective against certain enemys seeing as it would lock their ability to even act at all.

[Kristal]

Yep, and as for enemys in abyssea and post-abyssea who are overly reliant on TP moves, some (such as Ironclads) only USE TP moves, which would completly lock the enemy, then again thats what blue procing did was cause Amnesia. But now that you mention it I do agree it would be way to effective against certain enemys seeing as it would lock their ability to even act at all.

Ironclad regular attacks are 0TP moves, which are not affected by Amnesia. So it WOULD block those awesome rocket attacks, but not the 'regular' sweep attacks.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Except Blue Stagger prevents TP moves, and an Ironclad will cease moving during Blue stagger.

[Kristal]

Except Blue Stagger prevents TP moves, and an Ironclad will cease moving during Blue stagger.

That probably has more to do with the Ironclad's response to stagger then Amnesia in general. Automatons used to have similar problems with Amnesia preventing ranged attacks, until SE fixed it. So a few monster types would require the same fix if RDM gets Amnesia, although it probably would end up as a blanket immunity for 99.99% of the mobs anyway.

Some kind of enemy TP gain reduction would sound more promising though, might even bring back skillchaining if it's actually good enough.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Shinryu has the exact same issue. It isn't limited to Ironclads. Monsters with TP move attacks cannot attack if amnesia'd.

[Ophannus]

Would love a debuff that lowers magic defense or magic evasion. ._.

[Demon6324236]

I would still go with limiting the damage from a TP attack rather than lowering TP gain of the mob or something of that extent, simply for the reason we have that kind of spell on NIN already, and if it would be an ultimate spell for RDM it should be of RDMs own, not a copy & paste effect, kinda like I see Migawari for NIN, Meteor for BLM, Arise for WHM, Embrava/Kaustra for SCH, no other job gets these effects like they do, and none should, if RDM gets a spell with similar or the same effects as another jobs, what do we really have to show even?

When you need a zerg you call in the SCH for Embrava, not because they can use regen & haste(given they are /RDM or WHM) but for Embrava, that spell with its massive 5TP 25-30ish%Haste & about 60Regen when used by someone with capped skill, thats why you call them in, just like SMN with Alex, RDM as it stands is losing its use, if you look at endgame(VW/Abyssea) we cant proc as well as other jobs, we cant proc with only our specific spells because most wont land, and we have no job ability that only we can use to proc the mob.

We are left with no real reason to invite, one reason, we arnt a "DD" thus we cant fight, we cant heal like a WHM or a SCH can, and we cant nuke like a BLM or SCH can, we have shorter spell lists in both fields, we even go so far as to have Divine & Dark magic skill of which we can not use other than Dark on Bio & Divine WAS for Dia at a time. When we have things we cant use in most cases, and we have nothing to us that is truly unique we lose any reason to be used for anything relevant. We need a spell that really gives RDM a reason to exist in the game now, because as it is now, we have no place, we can solo, we can duo/trio, and we can do things outside of anything endgame, but when it comes to endgame we are left out, which is wrong. Jack-of-all-trades or not.

We should have a reason to play RDM still, a well thought out, working spell, that is unique to RDM yet not overpowered seems nearly impossible to me. We can effect everything on the mobs already(if it sticks that is) and yet, what good does it do us when other jobs get that power. We cant use Enhancing or DoT as our super powerful thing that people bring us for, Embrava & Kaustra fill those wonderfully.

RDM has been left behind I think, and honestly I'm out of ideas on what we can add to bring us back, we are now for soloing, and doing some things in partys we can do them in, for the most part our job/role is dying/dead, and especially with the new VW, which has no need for merit spells/JAs for procs? We just lost the one thing RDM had, its special enfeebling, without that I'm sure RDM will be turned away at every request to join a party outside of friends & ls mates who know them to take them with, otherwise us RDMs are doomed I'm afraid.