[dev1102] So what is the Ultimate Spell for RDM?

[Ophannus]

I just can't believe SE removed or reduced the effectiveness of the following abilities and spells when subbed(or not subbed in some cases):
Warcry
Hasso
Sneak Attack
Trick Attack
Hide
Soul Eater
Sublimation
Ranged Weapon Skills
High Jump
Bard Songs
Ancient/Warding/Holy/Arcane Circle
Phantom Rolls
Waltzes
Steps
Zanshin
Meditate
Utsusemi Ni
Call Beast
Cal Wyvern
Afflatus: Misery/Solace
Innin/Yonnin
Velocity Shot
And countless other abilities and spells


By subbing RDM nothing is reduced or removed. Refresh is still maximum potency and duration. Convert is still full strength. Enhancing spells are still as potent as they would be for the level and Fast Cast is untouched.

[Babekeke]

Maybe a spell a bit like Berserk from FF (9?) that boosts the attack speed and power of a mob, but prevents them from using abilities.
Or vice-versa, a spell that enables a mob to only use TP moves, but can't melee in between them. The latter would likely have to give them some regain I guess, or allow them to TP on the timer of a 999 delay weapon perhaps? Maybe less than that, that's ~16.5 seconds I think.

[Tassidaru]

Im not really sure if a single ultimate spell could really encapsulate rdm w/o utterly breaking the game...i think id rather see a set of spells that together would be our ultimate. of course, id also like to see SE increase the group 2 merit cap and rework rdm group 1 merits while they're at it...elemental accuracy...wow...

maybe a set of offensive and defensive auras (sphere effects but you get it too) 3-5 each, maybe...you could have 1 of each up at a time...like a regain (i can dream, cant i) to boost the pt (also nice in solo) and say... a plauge, or zombie, or just general stat down aura (maybe a new dot?) that affects the target... not only would they get rdm to the front line, it would buff the pt and/or debuff the target, and the mechanic is already there. so not a horrid amount of work for the devs either

[Duelle]

Refresh is still maximum potency and duration.

Not a bad thing. I like that the new standard for non-RDM mage jobs is "bring your own damn refresh".

Convert is still full strength.

Not a bad thing either. It means jobs subbing it have some semblance of MP longevity. Less on our plate, so we win on this one too.

I kinda know what you're getting at, but you're trying to make the variances in potency universal instead of looking at it case by case.

Fast Cast is untouched.

I can sort of agree with you on this, though I agree with Saev that Fast Cast should be stronger on RDM. I feel that Fast Cast could be left as is and add a trait on RDM at lv55 or so to make if more potent when casting spells without affecting recast timers any further, as per Saev's suggestion.

of course, id also like to see SE increase the group 2 merit cap and rework rdm group 1 merits while they're at it...elemental accuracy...wow...

I agree with this. Group 1 merits need to be reworked, and I'd take that a step further and turn the group 2 merit spells into scrolls and add in something else for group 2.

[Tassidaru]

I agree with this. Group 1 merits need to be reworked, and I'd take that a step further and turn the group 2 merit spells into scrolls and add in something else for group 2.

id agree with them being scrolls if and ONLY if the scroll versions were equal to the potency of they're 5/5 merit version.
make sure you stipulate that, cuz i have no love for the devs in terms of how they screw over jobs so easily...and my cynicism tells me that they would make the scrolls the power of 1/5 merits...and do it in a heart beat

[Babekeke]

id agree with them being scrolls if and ONLY if the scroll versions were equal to the potency of they're 5/5 merit version.
make sure you stipulate that, cuz i have no love for the devs in terms of how they screw over jobs so easily...and my cynicism tells me that they would make the scrolls the power of 1/5 merits...and do it in a heart beat

Just like pro/shell 5

[Demon6324236]

Fast Cast needs reworked for RDM because of the way AF3 sets work, look at BLM, you have -12% cast on your head piece if +2, use this with a lv99 trial staff of an element and you have -26%, use with the neck that lowers it by yet another 3% and you have -29% with Fast Cast of /RDM you cast much faster than RDM will, I know a BLM who casts at about 18-20% which is faster than my RDM can using similar gear. I may not be meant to be a nuker better than BLM but the fact they can use their much more potent spells much faster than me is wrong, RDM has Fast Cast because it is meant to have the advantage of speed to it as well to make up for the lack of potency I would think, and as such I should be casting at least as fast as a well geared BLM, not slower.

As for Convert & Refresh not being lowered in potency its right, they aren't, I'm happy in a way my RDM need not cast refresh on all the mages in the party/alliance yet it also rids of some of the unique points of RDM which most jobs have nerfed unique points on them as a sub, also convert helps MP and gives much larger supplies which I would not change except perhaps making it to where half of your hp goes into MP, which would give you MP back still in a large amount wouldn't be so massive. Though it may lessen the effect of the sub-job itself would make it more balanced.

As for a RDM super-spell I think Amnesia would work well, stop the mob from using TP attacks for a short time with a high rate of resist build as to not allow locking its TP attacks all together, also duration would not be long, perhaps 15 seconds or so, enough to be noticed but not to make the enemy defenseless. Obviously NMs would resist it more often but not to the extent it shouldn't be used, it should have a high rate of landing on anything with the first cast, after that NMs build resist faster than other mobs would. For instance I can use it on high level worms in Gustav Tunnel and land 2-3 times if I so choose before it would be to resisted to be worth trying, where as in VW I would cast 1 time, and from there on the chances of it landing would be spotty at best. Amnesia is one of the most potent enfeebles against players (I would say the most next to silence which we already get, and muddle which has no use how it is against anything other than players) yet we have never had access to it, the only way I know of even for a player to inflict it is through WAR using the Great-axe with it as an additional effect. So I think it is fitting for RDM to finally receive one of the most potent enfeeblings in the game, and be able to restrict not only the TP gain of an enemy (which some jobs have already, RDM should have something to itself as a ultimate spell, not something other jobs have) but to be able to prevent it over a short period of time!

[Duelle]

As for Convert & Refresh not being lowered in potency its right, they aren't, I'm happy in a way my RDM need not cast refresh on all the mages in the party/alliance yet it also rids of some of the unique points of RDM which most jobs have nerfed unique points on them as a sub, also convert helps MP and gives much larger supplies which I would not change except perhaps making it to where half of your hp goes into MP, which would give you MP back still in a large amount wouldn't be so massive. Though it may lessen the effect of the sub-job itself would make it more balanced.

Again, MP longevity is not a bad thing. Refresh should never, ever be a "unique" aspect/point/trait of RDM. Convert is fine as is. It keeps complications and things that shouldn't have anything to do with us far away, and that's fine by me.

Obviously NMs would resist it more often but not to the extent it shouldn't be used, it should have a high rate of landing on anything with the first cast, after that NMs build resist faster than other mobs would. For instance I can use it on high level worms in Gustav Tunnel and land 2-3 times if I so choose before it would be to resisted to be worth trying, where as in VW I would cast 1 time, and from there on the chances of it landing would be spotty at best. Amnesia is one of the most potent enfeebles against players (I would say the most next to silence which we already get, and muddle which has no use how it is against anything other than players) yet we have never had access to it, the only way I know of even for a player to inflict it is through WAR using the Great-axe with it as an additional effect. So I think it is fitting for RDM to finally receive one of the most potent enfeeblings in the game, and be able to restrict not only the TP gain of an enemy (which some jobs have already, RDM should have something to itself as a ultimate spell, not something other jobs have) but to be able to prevent it over a short period of time!

Absolutes never work well for enfeebles. That's largely the reason why enfeebling is so useless in the more recent events. You can't make something not cast or use TP moves and expect it to be balanced. Now, if you gave me something that reduced damage from TP moves by 15-25%, then we might be on to something. Weakeningn a mob to the point their TP moves are weaker would be a good direction, is not an absolute and allows us to help the group without becoming a buff-whore.

That being said, I'd still prefer Red Trance over any other option.

[Demon6324236]

As it has been said, we have few things unique to RDM, I agree jobs should be able to stand on their own two legs for MP lasting but it is brought up because its one of few things we have others don't. We have the same enfeebles that BLM & WHM have if both in the same party which they obviously should be, other than our merit spells which don't always make it enough to throw a RDM in your party just because you want the slightly better para/slow/blind II. Perhaps our traits should make a larger impact over the 50-99 levels so that we have a noticeable difference from those subbing RDM, as I stated I do not think a BLM should cast faster than my RDM, unless I'm completely ignoring fast cast & -cast time, gear. As for now, the only thing that makes our buffs truly greater than that of someone using RDM as a sub is we have Composure.

And amnesia only comes to mind because its something we have seen in the game for a very long time that has limited us while we have only ever had one way to use it, through a WAR not RDM, and only with an additional effect, which I feel is wrong. If they gave us it I admit it would be nearly impossible to balance especially in abyssea for the fact everything dies so fast the duration would need to be five seconds to make the mob have a chance after it wore off.

In either case I do agree a spell weakening TP attacks for the mob would be nice while not stopping them it would give us more breathing room still. My only problem with that is would it effect perhaps TP accuracy as well? Or being able to resist additional effects? Because sometimes the effects of the attack are what kills you more than the damage itself, such as Yama's Judgment from Kalasutrax(Jeuno T6 VWNM) dooming alot of your DDs, or Pinecone Bomb from Modron(Zilart T2 VWNM) sleeping the entire party for the most part. Again might be unbalancing to think of it doing something like that because it would make some TPs by the mobs basically useless, but it is simply an idea because sometimes you don't care all to much about the damage you receive from the TP, thats the least of your worries next to doom, amnesia, weakness, muddle, death, and so on. But I think in the end RDM needs a way to effect TP more than anything because we have everything else for the most part. We can stop attacks, lower accuracy, slow them down, lower evasion, stop use of or lessen the effect of spells, but still nothing we can do about TPs. About our greatest hope in the case the enemy uses a TP attack, is that we have stun. We already stop mobs being able to hit us with normal attacks, and eliminate magic as a problem, all we need now is TP/additional effects and we will be set to enfeeble mobs so much so that (provided we land the spell) the enemy will have little to no ability to win in most cases.

[Duelle]

As it has been said, we have few things unique to RDM, I agree jobs should be able to stand on their own two legs for MP lasting but it is brought up because its one of few things we have others don't.

Which was a flaw in design and caused grief on both ends, the Red Mage for wanting his job to be meaningful and instead being shackled to Refresh-bot, and the other casters who for some reason trhe devs believed should not be self-sufficient with MP. If anything, I wish these "fixes" by making Refresh subbable had been made available sooner to the other mage jobs.

As for now, the only thing that makes our buffs truly greater than that of someone using RDM as a sub is we have Composure.

Which is fine because it supports that theme of melee mage that I keep harping on about. Remember that we're still borrowing things from the other jobs.

And amnesia only comes to mind because its something we have seen in the game for a very long time that has limited us while we have only ever had one way to use it, through a WAR not RDM, and only with an additional effect, which I feel is wrong. If they gave us it I admit it would be nearly impossible to balance especially in abyssea for the fact everything dies so fast the duration would need to be five seconds to make the mob have a chance after it wore off.

You also forget the fact that a good number of mobs, in abyssea and post-abyssea are overly reliant on TP moves. This means Amnesia would NEVER work on them because you're effectively shutting the mob down entirely.

In all honesty, Amnesia should have never been implemented the way it has been. I know the devs were looking for a way to piss off melee, to inconvenience the eventual Dancer job,and to make imps threatening foes, but other things could have been done instead of something that entirely prevents TP moves and Job Abilities.

In either case I do agree a spell weakening TP attacks for the mob would be nice while not stopping them it would give us more breathing room still. My only problem with that is would it effect perhaps TP accuracy as well? Or being able to resist additional effects? Because sometimes the effects of the attack are what kills you more than the damage itself, such as Yama's Judgment from Kalasutrax(Jeuno T6 VWNM) dooming alot of your DDs, or Pinecone Bomb from Modron(Zilart T2 VWNM) sleeping the entire party for the most part.

Could be balanced as a case by case enfeeble, or just put in a blanket rule and have it reduce damage from TP moves, reduce duration of additional effects, and so on so that the spell's purpose is to lower the effectiveness of mob TP moves by a percentage. It'd fall under spells you use to help the group mitigate damage. If you want to tack the enfeebler thing to RDM, that'd be one nice way to help drive that point home.