New enhancing spell for RDM to promote party support.

[cidbahamut]

/tinfoil hat

Right on schedule.

[SpankWustler]

That's the point, we stopped playing it.

And now, so has everyone unless Refresh II or a handful of unique Voidwatch procs are needed.

The job's current lore is "This mystical AFKsman wields the Heavy Metal Plates in his bazaar with a heavy heart. His selection of Forgotten Touches inspires dirty jokes across Vana'diel. His hat is very red indeed."

[Duelle]

What were you expecting to do joining a party then, be a 'mystical swordsman' the party is instantly going to accept no matter how subpar it was?

If that's the case, then you fix the job to where it is no longer subpar in that aspect and go from there.

I mean, I get some want a reason to always be brought to events, and it's much easier when all you have to compete against is Bard and Corsair instead of the melee jobs in this game. Not all of us look at things that way, though.

[Byrth]

Until SE starts making debuffs both land AND matter AND makes events rely on mitigating/reducing rather than negating damage, I don't think RDM will have a real place in "serious" endgame events.

Slow II - CSB, melee attacks don't kill anyone unless their healers are horrible.
Paralyze II - See Slow II, but slightly more relevant because sometimes it might paralyze spells if the potency didn't seemed nerfed to crap on everything important. Rex only has 89 MND, which means most RDMs are crapping all over him in terms of dMND in their Paralyze II sets with Bravers, but I still don't see many Paralyze II procs on his spells.
Addle- Relevance of this spell is still pretty unclear. I guess it might be nice in voidwatch if it wasn't a proc that doesn't stack with itself/Nocturne.
Bio III- More useful than adding 5% Defense (compared to Bio II) and this one has uncapped D/Tick. Take from it what you will.
Dia III- Probably RDM's most useful enfeebling magic, offering -5% defense more than Dia II.
Gravity II- Would be useful for kite-nuking if nothing built resistance and kite-nuking was a reasonable strategy for anything.
Silence- Stun is the only useful magic that's allowed to proc on high level content sometimes. Silence isn't Stun
Sleep- See Silence. Sleep isn't Stun either.

For "big game" I think RDM has a lot further to go than it would against "light game" like old content stuff. Its enhancing magic alone would be sufficient to punt WHM from lowman parties. I don't mean to enrage the "fiting" spirit of the melee RDM here, but RDM melee is (in my opinion) best against "light game" kind of things anyway. I know plenty of people that use WHM/DNC as a healer in Dynamis. With these changes, they'd swap to RDM/DNC for sure. You keep the ability to remove statuses (Healing Waltz) and gain 20% DA for both your characters.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If that's the case, then you fix the job to where it is no longer subpar in that aspect and go from there.

I mean, I get some want a reason to always be brought to events, and it's much easier when all you have to compete against is Bard and Corsair instead of the melee jobs in this game. Not all of us look at things that way, though.

If you can't see why this game won't allow Rdm's melee to be that much better than it currently is short of native dual wield, I don't know what to say.

I doubt Rdm would even get that much (there's nothing really wrong with Rdm's melee from the perspective of it being a mage job. It was never anything more than just about decent with access to high level swords, which FFXI portrayed fairly well). Or either gaining a native Stun or Break actually landing on NMs (although this would help Blm abit more imo).

[saevel]

Until SE starts making debuffs both land AND matter AND makes events rely on mitigating/reducing rather than negating damage, I don't think RDM will have a real place in "serious" endgame events.

Slow II - CSB, melee attacks don't kill anyone unless their healers are horrible.
Paralyze II - See Slow II, but slightly more relevant because sometimes it might paralyze spells if the potency didn't seemed nerfed to crap on everything important. Rex only has 89 MND, which means most RDMs are crapping all over him in terms of dMND in their Paralyze II sets with Bravers, but I still don't see many Paralyze II procs on his spells.
Addle- Relevance of this spell is still pretty unclear. I guess it might be nice in voidwatch if it wasn't a proc that doesn't stack with itself/Nocturne.
Bio III- More useful than adding 5% Defense (compared to Bio II) and this one has uncapped D/Tick. Take from it what you will.
Dia III- Probably RDM's most useful enfeebling magic, offering -5% defense more than Dia II.
Gravity II- Would be useful for kite-nuking if nothing built resistance and kite-nuking was a reasonable strategy for anything.
Silence- Stun is the only useful magic that's allowed to proc on high level content sometimes. Silence isn't Stun
Sleep- See Silence. Sleep isn't Stun either.

For "big game" I think RDM has a lot further to go than it would against "light game" like old content stuff. Its enhancing magic alone would be sufficient to punt WHM from lowman parties. I don't mean to enrage the "fiting" spirit of the melee RDM here, but RDM melee is (in my opinion) best against "light game" kind of things anyway. I know plenty of people that use WHM/DNC as a healer in Dynamis. With these changes, they'd swap to RDM/DNC for sure. You keep the ability to remove statuses (Healing Waltz) and gain 20% DA for both your characters.

Not so much "Pro-Melee" as "Pro-RDM", meaning I want to enjoy all the aspects, including melee builds. I have nuking, healing, INT enfeebling and MND enfeebling sets to go with my enhancing / FC / TP / WS sets. I talk about Melee RDM because it's the least represented in the game right now, what the "Mage onry" people are going through with the Abyssea / Post Abyssea era is the exact same as the Melee side has been going through since 2004.

I mostly agree with your position, there is a phrase for it "melee on fodder, mage on boss" which is all the "Pro Melee" RDMs want. We're not asking to be swinging like a SAM / WAR / MNK on Rex, but we need more then the people like NQ want (absolutely no melee buffs, only mage buffs). Of course this invites the question, where exactly is the line between "heavy" and "light" end-game content? It tends to be fuzzy and get redefined to suite the agenda of those involved. People in the anti-melee camp swear anything above a level 0 bunny is "heavy", where as you have people who want to melee on everything under the sun. For supporting points people will use "TP Feed", "AoEs" and it's brother "using healers MP" to justify a RDM sitting the back line with a staff shoved where the sun don't shine. Never mind that all three of those were debunked back in 07.

I once asked the anti-melee people to provide a benchmark or standard that a RDM must surpass to be "allowed" to melee? They have to provide one that didn't involve main healing (support healing is fine). They like to say how "bad" RDM's melee capability is yet every day you me and everyone else here witness's absolute crap DD's, some even have Emps and don't blink when they fight. When do we draw a line and say "on this you can melee, on this you can't" so on and so forth.

It seems people really are more focused on making the absolute bestest best setups for things, when that really just cuts out half the jobs in the game, then in players actually enjoying themselves.

[Byrth]

I think if your RDM isn't meleeing in something like Dynamis coin-farming, Salvage, Limbus, etc. then the job is not being used to its full potential. The same is true of White Mage, really. Unless there is an AoE that might give you a status that interfere with your magely duties, then it is probably fine to melee.

In Salvage, my RDM mule just sits there and casts Cure IV about once a minute while I kill a big Fomor train in Powderkeg's room. It wouldn't undoubtably help my killspeed if he was a real player and could just melee with me. There's no real danger in him being enfeebled. They can't even use TP moves without a Devilet. That said, would I want him meleeing a Devilet with me in the same room? Not unless he's prepared to burn Echo Drops. My mule lives on a very tight Echo Drop budget, but he also doesn't have a melee build (or sword skill over the 75 cap). A good RDM could probably melee their way through salvage alongside me.

RDM melee isn't really good with AoEs that give Paralyze, Silence, Petrification, Sleep, do a substantial amount of damage, give strong Slow, or in situations where you have to heal so much damage that there's almost no point in equipping swords because all you're really doing is spamming cure.

For instance, would I take a melee RDM to fight Nightmare Tigers in Abyssea - Qufim? No, I would not. If I am solo, they probably won't get to TP before they die. With a melee RDM, they probably will, and he'll have twice as many targets to remove Paralyze from if it does happen.

[saevel]

RDM melee isn't really good with AoEs that give Paralyze, Silence, Petrification, Sleep, do a substantial amount of damage, give strong Slow, or in situations where you have to heal so much damage that there's almost no point in equipping swords because all you're really doing is spamming cure.

Paralyze = depends, it effects RDM the same as everyone else.
Silence = Bring echo's
Petrification = See Paralyze
Sleep = See petrification
Damage = RDM actually take less damage then full DD's do, thanks in part to MDB and Stoneskin / Phalanx / Barspells. If it's enough damage to warrant a RDM not meleeing, then it's enough to warrant everyone else standing back.
Slow = effects us the same as everyone else.

Excess Curing = You need to be in the back period if your healing enough to warrant this. If a RDM is main healing, or healing enough to be considered "main healing" then they need to stay their happy arses in the back. Tossing out emergency Cure IV's is one thing, spamming it is something entirely different.

So of all the status effects it boils down to para / petri / sleep as the only remotely dangerous ones. It effects the RDM the same as DNC / THF / BLU / WAR / SAM / MNK / ect. This is where it really becomes situational, what casting load is the RDM under? Enfeebles don't need to be spammed, you cast it and move on. So we're left with haste cycles and Cure IV support. If your the only one with haste then your probably main healing and need to sit your happy arse in the back. Then there is the third option, procing (RDM/SCH with the BLMs in voidwatch T6 ect.), in which case you absolutely shouldn't be meleeing and instead focusing on hitting procs with the BLMs.

So we got three roles
Main Healer (healing + haste cycles) = Back Line
Enfeebling / Damage / Support Healer = Front Line
Procing on heavy NMs = Back Line

We're just asking for even buffs across all three.

*Note*
I'm speaking about 6-man or more style content. Douing / Trioing / Low manning things really depends on the situation and relative danger.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Except there are monsters you don't want to melee on a mage job that you still want DDs on. If you can't figure out why Idk what to say.

[Duelle]

Until SE starts making debuffs both land AND matter

Debuffs are a little more complicated than that. Dia and Bio should stack. Slow should probably have a secondary or blanket effect if you want to make it matter a little more (of course, knowing the devs this would mean Slow would also have that effect when player characters receive the debuff). Addle could gain a potency boost on targets that are also affected by Slow if you want to play off the secondary effect bit.

Gravity II- Would be useful for kite-nuking if nothing built resistance and kite-nuking was a reasonable strategy for anything.

Which may open the doors to the idiotic boss-soloing we saw many years ago, AKA the thing that gave Red Mages a VERY bad name.

AND makes events rely on mitigating/reducing rather than negating damage

Considering this game has been mostly about avoiding damage altogether (see: Utsusemi, Chainspell-Stun, Headbutt Spam), I don't see how you could bring in mitigation-based encounters without forcing the devs to a) fix defense, b) rescale mob attack, and c) come up with actual encounters with mechanics that make it possible to mitigate incoming damage through proper use of abilities. A couple of years ago I would have included "Nerf Utsusemi", but I'm not sure on that one now. There's also the issue of -PDT being tossed around like candy.

I doubt Rdm would even get that much

Access to more melee gear and access to better WS would be a nice place to start. An AF set that focuses on front-line combat would also be nice. Now whether Tanaka is willing to give us that...

there's nothing really wrong with Rdm's melee from the perspective of it being a mage job. It was never anything more than just about decent with access to high level swords, which FFXI portrayed fairly well

And it works differently than in console RPGs because console FFs have the player calling the shots, meaning you could make a party with 4 white mages and go to town and no one would be there to oppose you. That's not how MMOs work because its not just one person calling the shots.

From a design standpoint, the mediocre guy doesn't get far in MMO's because he's not useful at anything, which is what some Red Mages are seeing right now. Instead of wanting to go back to where we were at 75, some of us just want to go in a different direction with our favorite job. Both sides of the debate should be getting equal treatment and be given the same consideration, but that hasn't been the case.