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  1. #61
    Player Duelle's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    658
    Character
    Duelle
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler View Post
    Their vision for Red Mage sounds completely ridiculous compared to how the job actually functions.
    I'm guessing you're referring to the fact that SE designed it as a hybrid but some players are desperate to cram it into a healer/buffbot slot.
    The English version also sounded completely ridiculous compared to how the job actually functions, of course, but at least it had an optimistic glow about it.
    I'll admit if someone had not brought it up we would have never realized it, but we were given a manifesto that was not properly translated.
    The Japanese version implies that they think +25 of a base statistic and Temper are super-duper useful and job-defining
    Which is still much better than the player-maintained misconception of Refresh, Haste, and Cures being super-duper and job-defining when it came to RDM.
    and that Slow and Paralyze are as helpful now as they were in 2006
    This goes back to a discussion I once had with someone over how debuffs in Final Fantasy are either miniscule or OP by MMO standards. FF has too many debuffs that function as absolutes instead of being how debuffs usually are treated in MMOs. In any other game, Paralyze is OP. In any other game, Break is OP. Hell, even stuff like Silence is kept to a minimum because any longer would be pretty damn OP.

    When your debuffs are on that threshold, you're going to keep their use at a minimum. In a way, the approach the devs have taken with mob design shows that the devs are aware of this too. Now whether this means enfeebles get redesigned (ideal) or slight modifications here and there to allow some but not all to be useful (what'll most likely end up happening), we'll have to wait and see.
    (2)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line.

  2. #62
    Player
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,749
    My point is simple.

    A group of players wanting something does not make it useful. Even the Development Bros wanting something does not make it useful. Being relatively effective at making monsters die and die horribly or making players live and live well makes something useful.

    Red Mage has a very good foundation for casting Enhancing magic between native Fast Cast and Composure with the Empyrean armor enhancement. Giving the job more support spells to build on that foundation would make the job more useful in all environments.

    People could choose whether to use something new or not. People could even use new spells for their own benefit, perhaps even on themselves while meleeing in Dynamis or old content. Imagine that.

    Something new and usable on others doesn't have to be cast on four or five people, either. It could mean an incredibly potent spell that can only be kept on one person full-time, and even then, only through the aid of Composure and the Empyrean set. Just, please, let the caster choose the person.

    There's a huge area to explore that is neither "WHM-LITE, LESS FILLING MORE REDDENING MORE MAGIC DAMAGE TAKEN." nor "I AM THE FIFTH WORST MELEE AND I HATE CURE IV!" and it surely contains things that would be useful and would lend more uniqueness to Red Mage.
    (4)

  3. #63
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,346
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    How much they believe in their own goals doesn't make those goals worthwhile, and particularly does not indicate their means of accomplishing those goals are effective.

    Their vision for Red Mage sounds completely ridiculous compared to how the job actually functions. The English version also sounded completely ridiculous compared to how the job actually functions, of course, but at least it had an optimistic glow about it.

    The Japanese version implies that they think +25 of a base statistic and Temper are super-duper useful and job-defining and that Slow and Paralyze are as helpful now as they were in 2006 (the English version also implied this, but it's still dumb). Which, while not the least bit surprising, remains depressing.
    It's their game, they can do whatever they want to with it. And seeing how they've reacted, or failed to react, to player feedback before, we can all be pretty damn sure their gonna do whatever it is they want to do. Whether you think it's worthwhile or not has absolutely zero bearing on that point.

    So tell me, how does the job "actually function"? You mean ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Silena ... Cure IV? Wow those are spells that haven't changed a single bit since ... level 48 and every other job in the game can do just as well. You've basically defined RDM as a sub only, congrats. We're just wanting there to be more then ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV .. Haste ... Cure IV ... "unnamed spell" ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste.
    (2)

  4. #64
    Player
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    Aug 2011
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    1,749
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    It's their game, they can do whatever they want to with it. And seeing how they've reacted, or failed to react, to player feedback before, we can all be pretty damn sure their gonna do whatever it is they want to do. Whether you think it's worthwhile or not has absolutely zero bearing on that point.
    This is true enough. I don't think saying "Hey, middle-aged Japanese dude, your vision is probably pointless and your attempts to achieve it are definitely falling short. Also, put on some pants and stop putting those pens up your nose." is actually going to change anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    So tell me, how does the job "actually function"? You mean ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Silena ... Cure IV? Wow those are spells that haven't changed a single bit since ... level 48 and every other job in the game can do just as well. You've basically defined RDM as a sub only, congrats. We're just wanting there to be more then ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV .. Haste ... Cure IV ... "unnamed spell" ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste.
    Cast Blizzard IV. Sleep stuff. Enfeeble stuff. And yeah, even melee when appropriate.

    I do agree Red Mage has a lot of overlap with White Mage at the moment, probably even more than Scholar has with either job. I also think there are more far productive ways to differentiate the two than simply making Red Mage more less awful at hitting things with things.
    (3)

  5. #65
    Player
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    Mar 2011
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    1,003
    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    So tell me, how does the job "actually function"? You mean ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Silena ... Cure IV? Wow those are spells that haven't changed a single bit since ... level 48 and every other job in the game can do just as well. You've basically defined RDM as a sub only, congrats. We're just wanting there to be more then ... Cure IV ... Haste ... Cure IV .. Haste ... Cure IV ... "unnamed spell" ... Haste ... Cure IV ... Haste.
    Stop using this line of rhetoric. You are a terrible player if that's all you do as a mage, and you should feel bad about it.
    (4)

  6. #66
    Player Byrth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    I don't understand why a job has to be fun to be useful. Letting enhancing magic target other players doesn't mean you have to cast on them. You would still be free to only buff yourself, but you'd get kicked from the alliance for ignoring the obviously-more-valuable role you could be playing.
    (3)

  7. #67
    Player
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    Sep 2011
    Posts
    259
    This is, however, a game and should be fun, no?
    (4)

  8. #68
    Player Byrth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Then play it however you find fun. (and subsequently get kicked from the alliance for being worthless)
    (3)

  9. #69
    Player Daniel_Hatcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    2,577
    Character
    Alvian
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 12
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    I don't understand why a job has to be fun to be useful. Letting enhancing magic target other players doesn't mean you have to cast on them. You would still be free to only buff yourself, but you'd get kicked from the alliance for ignoring the obviously-more-valuable role you could be playing.
    Still the easiest thing SE can do is Aura effects, I know SE said no, but that doesn't change the fact. Single target buffs for upto 6 people was not and will never be fun. Whatever you want for RDM personally you will never get away from the enhancing concept.

    But Hey, SE love to:

    (3)

  10. #70
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,346
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    I don't understand why a job has to be fun to be useful. Letting enhancing magic target other players doesn't mean you have to cast on them. You would still be free to only buff yourself, but you'd get kicked from the alliance for ignoring the obviously-more-valuable role you could be playing.
    Because it's a video game designed for entertainment. If I wanted to work then I'd stay at work, my time is valuable.

    That attitude is exactly why most of the pre-Abyssea RDM's have moved on to other jobs, better to have playing SAM/WAR/MNK/~insert job here~ then to be harassed playing RDM. The job was turned into a way to get gear for your other job, similar to what happened to BRD.

    As I said before, at least your honest, you want the buffs so your mule can make your MNK better and so you can force others to make you better.
    (1)

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