New enhancing spell for RDM to promote party support.

[saevel]

Elvann 99 RDM/NIN, 12 STR merits 8 sword merits 5% crit merits
Unbuffed no Food
STR:103+21
DEX: 84+24
Attack: 551
Haste:25%
DA: +10%
TA: +2%
Crit: +5%
Store TP:+10

W/ Bison Steak (+6 STR +90 attack@500 costs 5.5K each lasts 3hr)
STR: 103+27
DEX: 84+24
Attack: 644

W/Buffs
STR:103+52
DEX:84+24
Attack: 656
Dia III applied: 771.4
or
STR:103+27
DEX:84+49
Attack: 644
Dia III applied: 757.3

The rest

DA: +30%
Enspell +30 (29.15 at capped magic accuracy)
DW: 30%

99 Elvann BLU/WAR same as above
STR:103+31
DEX: 80+72
Attack: 581
Haste:24% (BLU needs to wear AF body, Zelus Tiara or Octh+1 to reach 25% haste)
DA: +26%
TA: +6%
Crit: +8% (Athos's boots and tights)
Critical Attack: +4% (A.Tights)
Store TP:+16

W/Food
STR:103+37
DEX: 80+72
Attack: 674
DW: 30%

Berserk:
Attack:820
Averaged as: 761.6

JT's set were DWIII, TA, Store TP I, Auto-Refresh, Utility Spells were Battery Charge, M.Fruit, A.Burst and WoP for 52/60 remaining for whatever else is needed possibly sTP II. Could disable utility spells but lose out on self healing and aoe erase.

757 vs 761.6

That is the difference. No way in hell are you getting a 30% difference between those two unless your doing some really dirty manipulation. BLU wins hands down in WS gear, it has a monstrous amount of DEX due to Toci's, Oth Head and Atho's set. Both jobs can achieve capped critical hit rate on the "outside Abyssea Bukhis during WS. BLU will hit cap crits on anything with 102 or less AGI during melee, at 112 or more that tappers off. RDM on the other hand only hits cap on things with 83 or less AGI, fodder basically.

What you did was give either give the BLU Dia III (or just Dia II from someone else) or simply not buff the RDM. You can get the BLU to capped haste by buying a ~6mil head piece or by switching out the body / head, which would yield less damage due to the DA/TA and dDex involved.

This is all gear I actually have, and not even in the most remote elitist mind can it be called gimp or average.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can add in Gain spells manually, is that seriously too hard for you?

700 DPS are you serious... are you targeting EPs? You don't hit that with marches on a EP mob.

[saevel]

You can add in Gain spells manually, is that seriously too hard for you?

700 DPS are you serious... are you targeting EPs?

Which you didn't do. I doubt you even added Temper seeing as it was a PLD sheet.

You also didn't even read or you'd recognize that the numbers aren't dps but attack values to show your misconception that /WAR is giving you some huge attack bonus is false. Neither is DA / TA giving you much of a multi-hit edge due to RDM's Temper.

It boils down to BLU having slightly higher attack, slightly more TA but less DA (due to Toci / Epona) and slightly more crit hit rate.

Those together would be enough for a 10~15%, even as much as 20% assuming the worst cast scenario for the RDM (high LCF mob which has annoying magic resistance). But to get 30% you need to be very dishonest with the numbers you use.

You also failed to account for any utility brought to the table other then damage. Seeing as this was a pure "RDM is the worst DD in the game" message from you, I pretty much just proved you wrong. Anything that RDM has a problem doing damage on, BLU will to. So by saying RDM is the worst you also say BLU is the worst due to their stats being so similar.

Anothing thing to note, Moten's sheet is missing things. The current RDM sheet does not have Gain-Stat and requires you to manually input it. Also it's missing gear, Tyrants Ring and Rancor Collar, both of which I happen to use. Those are a bit harder to add as their stats get swapped out during TP and WS and manually editing the data sets can screw the formula's up.

[saevel]

Finally WS,

WS
RDM
STR:103+28
DEX:84+91
Attack:652
Attack Dia III: 766.7
DA:28
TA:0
Crit:+5%


BLU
STR:103+44
DEX:80+85
Attack:681
Attack Berserk:828
Averaged Attack: 769.2
DA:24
TA:6
Crit:+9% (Athos's Hand + Feet + Leg)

Only difference here is for HQ Kak hands and / or feet. The set provides +1% after the first two so ends up being a wash without the body. I believe the body is the better Ws piece due to its +5% crit damage and slightly higher DEX, but there is DA + TA from the Toci's body. Should be close between them.

And I stand corrected, RDM actually has the same or slightly more DEX on WS set due to Gain-DEX making up the difference and then some. BLU can use the +7 ring but most give up the DA / TA from epona's.

[saevel]

Now do you know what's better then both those scenarios? Putting them together, RDM/NIN + BLU/WAR (or both /DNC for dynamis). Dia III not only spikes your Ratio but also spikes your attack on Blue Magic Spells. It's one of the few ways to raise the damage of Blue Magic by a significant amount. It gives everyone an attack boost similar to an alliance wide Minuet.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can add that manually, are you seriously too retarded to do that?

Using current pld sheet adjusted for Blu and actual Rdm sheet. Removed toci's for NQ harness. Left rest as Athos or HQ ocelomeh (spare me the gil arguments, Rdm is using near perfect set). Food is RCB for both, Blu/war DW3 STP1 TA and has Dia2, Rdm/Nin Dia 3. Target is fodder 420 base defense, both are tarutaru like race makes anything more than a 1-2% difference.

Blu/War 242.611 DPS overall accounting for Zerk Up/Down

Rdm/Nin 233 DPS

Oh okay, I'll take that back, on DC mobs Rdm is 3% behind a Blu who never casts spells and can't skillchain.

You also failed to account for any utility brought to the table other then damage. Seeing as this was a pure "RDM is the worst DD in the game" message from you, I pretty much just proved you wrong. Anything that RDM has a problem doing damage on, BLU will to. So by saying RDM is the worst you also say BLU is the worst due to their stats being so similar.

This is pretty ironic coming from you after all your whining about how BLu was a better healer enfeebler and damage dealer than Rdm.

[saevel]

You can add that manually, are you seriously too retarded to do that?

Using current pld sheet adjusted for Blu and actual Rdm sheet. Removed toci's for NQ harness. Left rest as Athos or HQ ocelomeh (spare me the gil arguments, Rdm is using near perfect set). Food is RCB for both, Blu/war DW3 STP1 TA and has Dia2, Rdm/Nin Dia 3. Target is fodder 420 base defense, both are tarutaru like race makes anything more than a 1-2% difference.

Blu/War 242.611 DPS overall accounting for Zerk Up/Down

Rdm/Nin 233 DPS

Oh okay, I'll take that back, on DC mobs Rdm is 3% behind a Blu who never casts spells and can't skillchain.

And thus I am proven correct. It's no where near 30% as you stated, nor is it "the worst DD evar!!" as you've been letting on. I didn't make a gil argument, I merely demonstrated EXACTLY what I had. I even stated that you could reach 25% haste by buying it and allowed for it. I used Bison Steak because it's cheap and what I use most of the time at 5.5K a stack. RCB's are hella expensive, your not spamming those. Of course I get my RCB's free thus I can spam those, but I certainly don't expect everyone else to.

And what your not saying is that a BLU who is casting spells will do less damage then a BLU who is spamming CDC as casting lowers your TP gain rate and melee damage. So your actually showing your optimal setup as long as you don't cast spells. Self SCing once per 1:40, assuming your TP and timers magically align with the monster remaining HP so as to not overkill it, is the only thing missing off that list. Self SCing is not going to add 27% additional damage (3% -> 30%).

And you cheated, you can't have two sub jobs so you can't add Dia II to the monster for an 11.1% attack bonus. Someone else has to, but we'll allow that seeing as this is a party enhancing thread and we're all about helping each other out.

You said RDM was one of the worst DD's you even placed WHM above RDM. You placed DNC, THF, BLU and even BRD above RDM. And we just demonstrated how that was all wrong, RDM is right behind a BLU/WAR. It should be behind BLU, it should be in the same bracket as THF / NIN / DNC. Honestly the only thing RDM is missing is some decent gear options in the Body and feet department.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's behind Thf Nin Dnc and Blu I'm sorry but you're pretty delusional if you think being 3% within Blu means you're close to those 3. Except maybe a terribad Thf, or a Bad Nin. Excuse me, why would you take Rdm at that point? That's pretty damn terrible. Are you seriously happy you beat the other mages? I mean, really? You're happy you can outDD Smn Blm and Sch? Damn I wish I could be as cool as you.
(I intentionally ignored Whm because I don't believe they should be meleeing actually. I don't have the patience to math Brd - Actually, it wouldn't even take longer than a half hour).

Tashan already explained to you spellcasting on Blu on the Blue forum, go read it again.

Sorry, I carry a pocket Whm, so Dia2 will be on unless you solo on Blu/war (not gonna happen). You already admitted you duo so you'd have dia 3 for both (Rdm now 6% behind Blu on fodder).

[saevel]

It's behind Thf Nin Dnc and Blu I'm sorry but you're pretty delusional if you think being 3% within Blu means you're close to those 3. Except maybe a terribad Thf, or a Bad Nin. Excuse me, why would you take Rdm at that point? That's pretty damn terrible. Are you seriously happy you beat the other mages? I mean, really? You're happy you can outDD Smn Blm and Sch? Damn I wish I could be as cool as you.


Tashan already explained to you spellcasting on Blu on the Blue forum, go read it again.

Sorry, I carry a pocket Whm, so Dia2 will be on unless you solo on Blu/war (not gonna happen). You already admitted you duo so you'd have dia 3 for both (Rdm now 6% behind Blu on fodder).

And Prothscar explained it even better. All Tashan showed were Damage:MP ratios which are not what we're talking about. We need Damage:Time ratios and with Almace and /WAR greatly favor WS spam vs spell spam. A BLU/WAR who doesn't cast outside of self SC will deal more damage then one who spams spells. Casting one DD spell or two doesn't matter, it all reduces your TP gain rate, the more you cast the worse it gets. And the funny part is BLU spells get worse the higher the target. So in the situation where BLU would gain vs RDM, higher LCF, those spells you claim will add 27% would be much worse.

And by your own math it's 3% from your perfectly geared BLU. By your own admission then your behind the THF, NIN and DNC.

This wasn't an exercise about party support, it was a pure measurement of DD potential. By your own argument why bring a BLU when you can bring a THF, DNC or NIN who is, by your own argument, better then your BLU. And why bring any of them when you can just bring lots of WARs, MNKs and SAMs who are the undisputed kings of the DD hill. If damage is your only measure of a job, which you've demonstrated it is, then bringing a BLU instead of a WAR/SAM/MNK would be a bad decision.

Please argue more, you've already made yourself look very bad. You even disproved your earlier statements about BLU being "30%" better then a RDM. You can't make any sort of damage statements after doing that.

And if you really want to go off the deep end, I have my own 99 WHM that I dual box frequently. My SAM + my WHM will crush your BLU + WHM, but then we've really gone off the lank of pink butterfly's and this discussion becomes no longer relevant.

Thus on fodder, 3% which is 1000% less then your previous statement of 30%. You were off by a whole order of magnitude, talk about hyperbole.

[saevel]

Now this has all been fun but in all honestly there isn't an activity in existence that will have either BLU or RDM not casting anything. The difference between them will depend on casting load of each. The BLU's two buffs (Refresh / Haste) last 5min each, and honestly you should only need refresh if your needing to Cure bomb yourself a lot. The RDM has Haste / Refresh II / Temper / Enspell / Gain-DEX that need to be kept up, all at 11:42 recasts. This gives the BLU more swing time. And lets be honest, a RDM will be casting more then self buffs, they should be casting Dia III on every target and depending on target Paralyze II / Slow II. Both jobs have the capacity to heal but the RDM is traditionally expected to heal more, especially after next update (or whenever they introduce the healing buff).

Your real difference between the two is in the RDM's casting load, it's a job that can offer more then brunt melee damage and is expected to do more. And while a BLU can do this also, and some (including me) would say can do it better then RDM, most BLU's seem to temperately unlearn the spells M.Fruit, P.Embrace and W.Wind. Thankfully my duo partners haven't been effected by this disease yet.

Now back to skilling up healing magic skill.