Planned adjustments to Neo-Nyzul = THF no longer wanted?

[Starry]

So in either of those extremely drawn out posts did anyone really explain WHY you would choose to bring thief over another class to nyzul? In this day and age where 99's are just a days abyssea burn away and you can get af+2 while just doing an empy or other classes gear; there's no real reason to bring a 'subpar job'.

The problem comes at the content, not the class(so much). Thief isn't where it could(and arguablly) should be, but the problem comes more to the mentality of the population and the content. Nyzul for instance is mainly a slaughter fest at the fastest possible speed; which means heavy DD's and minimal support. Thief, regardless of skill level, lacks the DD ability of 'average' heavy DD's[especially outside of abyssea].

Obviously I'm not saying NEVER EVER NAHNAHBOOBOOO bring THF to nyzul(pre-abyssea I brought my thief to every nyzul[because of my group make up]) and we did just as good as the next guy. The problem extends to the population, after determining how the event will be played. While a good THF may not extremely increase your chances of failboating; the chance of doing so is greater because of how the class plays. In the sense that in order for X thief to be 'on par' with Ydd it requires this gear and a lot of 'skill'. While all Ydd has to do is melee in one set of gear and occasionally hit a ws macro.

The discrepancy in skill level NEEDED to be effective is so large that many people forming a PUG would much rather look for classes that require less 'hope' they won't be bad(in this case war or sam). Wether people know they do this or not, I'm not certain; but if I'm forming a pug(for whatever reason) I go the same route.

[Aana]

You are still harping the same point presented as fact when it is an opinion. That you NEED to be as good as a warrior to be useful. The problem is, there ARE no 1.95 million dollar homes in this game to buy. There is not one. single. thing. in this game that thf cannot help a team to win if the are good at being a thf. You keep repeating liability, liability, liability as if thf is breaking an otherwise completely successful event.

Does thf need to work harder to do more damage? Duh. Does a pup have to work harder to do more damage? Rdm? Smn? ANY JOB THAT ISNT WAR? War is #1. If everyone is getting their butts expelled for not being #1 then why isnt everyone playing war? Whats the point if your not being 110% efficient?

Why on earth would anyone play mnk when it offers NOTHING a war cant do better?

Because it can get the job done despite being a SlowMobile thats why and some people like the design better. Or the heated seats, or some other amenity that WarMobile doesnt have that has nothing to do with performance, but with preference.

You can get to 100 with a thf in your party. You can beat any VW mob in the game. You can do any and every event in the world on thf without pushing some auto-die button just like you can 'downgrade' from a War+War DD setup to a War+Mnk setup. Or a Mnk+Mnk. Or Drk+Drg. They all get the job done. What world are you in that demands efficiency at all costs? Where are your allis of 3 cors, 3 brds, 3 whms and 9 Wars? Where are they? If this is so damn important that we cannot be without 110% POWA then why does anyone do anything but support+WarMobile?

They dont exist is where. Player variance and player job preference mean that there are good players scattered over every job. And the variance a jobs Minimum and Maximum performance based on player capability OVERLAPS ENOUGH that virtually every job can be competative. Furthermore, the bar to complete virtually any task in this game falls in that overlapping region.
This means that pretty much ANY job can be an asset to a group. Some jobs work harder than others to do so, but there is not 1.95 million dollar home in the gated community of Warriors.

So you want to achieve a goal, you find everyone that is GREAT and go for it because a mixed alli of great players exists. A homogenous group of great players on teh same jobs DOESNT exist for us to just waltz out to jeuno and shout for.

Its really this simple: Can a thf carry their weight? If the goal is 100, can i bring my thf and carry my weight as a party slot?

Am I the weakest link that should be replaced?
The imaginary 'ideal' world where everyone is perfect on every job and we have our pick of the litter: Yes.
When i log in and play: No

The question isnt: Would I be better if i went back and time, rerolled my char and played war all these years instead? Its: Can I make this group better by joining it today, right now, as I am. Being 2nd place in perfect hypothetical world doesnt mean much when you can just practice a little harder in the real world and still be 1st. Is it 'right' or 'fair' that i have to practice harder to be 1st? Nope. Does it matter if you can be 1st anyway? Not to me, but apparently to you. Yay opinions!

I cant possibly believe im about to say this. The purpose is to be (generally) successful while having fun because its a game. If the only way you have fun is being in the most optimum possible situation that exclude anything less than a WarMobile EVEN when a lolThfMobile can achieve the same goal without making the world implode, then that is your schtick. I have fun doing the best I can with what I got so long as its still 'good enough' to complete the task and get to where i want to go and Im having fun doing it.

Note on your issues with shout groups. People shouting are about what they 'think' is best. Just because some idiot in jeuno wants Sam+War ONRY and turns down your thf doesnt mean your thf would not be an asset to that group. It means that guy shouting is wrong because (chances are very, very high) that (just like me getting asked to come rng over Thf for DD on VW when we have a rng for procs already) my thf is a stronger asset to kill things. My thf can beat my rng. The guy shouting doesnt know that. THat doesnt mean me going as thf is a liability vs my rng, it means dumb shouter is WRONG.

[Karbuncle]

I'm running out of creative ways to say "Just because a Good THF can out-DD a mediocre WAR doesn't mean THF is good, I can Out-Melee a Perle WAR on RDM, Doesn't mean RDM melee is good".

The discrepancy in skill level NEEDED to be effective is so large that many people forming a PUG would much rather look for classes that require less 'hope' they won't be bad(in this case war or sam). Wether people know they do this or not, I'm not certain; but if I'm forming a pug(for whatever reason) I go the same route.

This is the best way to put it. Good DD, Bad DD's, Good THFs, Bad THFs, point is, THF can be really fucking terrible if played wrong, If played right, They can be Pretty Decent at best. a WAR requires far less effort to do Well.

. If the only way you have fun is being in the most optimum possible situation that exclude anything less than a WarMobile EVEN when a lolThfMobile can achieve the same goal without making the world implode, then that is your schtick.

I love playing THF, its fun, exciting. That doesn't mean I'll be forever content being a Mediocre DD thats nothing more than the sum of my Treasure Hunter level. If you're comfortable being a Mediocre DD That excels at nothing and has to be perfected just to barely catch up to a Decent Melee, Thats your Schtick.

Me, Personally, I want my job to be more than the sum of its Treasure Hunter gear.

Regardless of how you may view it, Thief requires heavy amounts of maintenance to even Scratch the bottom of a Half-Decent WAR, a Job that requires massive amounts of effort and gear to just perform "OKAY" Is flawed in itself.

A Job should not need to be perfected just to perform at a Medium-Level. In case it was lost or you didn't read it (ha!), I'll repeat again, Its not so much i want THF to be a better DD, I want THF to be able to do more than just upgrade TH, and Swing its dagger to almost contribute. The job needs more to it than being a half-rate DD with TH Attached to its hip.

The job is flawed from its core outwards.

[Babekeke]

2nd, The above quote basically sums up our differences. I make 2 million a year. My friend makes 1.9 million a year. I guess hes just a broke bastard that doesnt deserve to live and might as well just be a welfare queen. Just because your not the richEST doesnt make you not RICH. Just because your not the best dd doesnt remove you from the world. You still do more damage/make more money than 99% of vanadiel/the world. Yet you dismiss it as completely meaningless.

But if you have to make 10 million in a year between 5 people, you take 5 that make 2 mil. And a WHM to feed them while they work!

[Starry]

Ignorance is bliss I guess? Let's take a ride on the Logiiiiiiiccccccccccc Traiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnn

You are still harping the same point presented as fact when it is an opinion. That you NEED to be as good as a warrior to be useful.

Opinion? Fact? I think you're not quite sure about the vocabulary you are using. Want some facts - here's some.
>Nyzul is an area of the game best played in the 'zerg mentality'
>Thief does not play well into the 'zerg mentality'

At no point in my post did I display any 'opinion' as fact, in actuality it's your comments that are doing the aforementioned problem.

Does thf need to work harder to do more damage? Duh. Does a pup have to work harder to do more damage? Rdm? Smn? ANY JOB THAT ISNT WAR? War is #1. If everyone is getting their butts expelled for not being #1 then why isnt everyone playing war? Whats the point if your not being 110% efficient?

I think you're trying to be funny? Or trying a strawman argument...? Can't quite get it down. Regardless I'll treat it as if you are actually being serious. There is a large difference between bringing 'heavy DD's that are comparable', 'bring 6 war's durrr' and 'thief is on par'. Diversification isn't always bad, as long as it's the optimal diversification. Bringing 6 war's is not optimal, just like the mentality of always subbing dancer isn't optimal either.

Why on earth would anyone play mnk when it offers NOTHING a war cant do better?

If you're being serious here you either

A) Lack any knowledge of gameplay mechanics
B) Don't want to acknowledge said facts

You can get to 100 with a thf in your party.

POIDH?

They dont exist is where. Player variance and player job preference mean that there are good players scattered over every job. And the variance a jobs Minimum and Maximum performance based on player capability OVERLAPS ENOUGH that virtually every job can be competative.

Absolutely not the truth. Good try though.

This means that pretty much ANY job can be an asset to a group. Some jobs work harder than others to do so, but there is not 1.95 million dollar home in the gated community of Warriors.

There's a difference between 'being an asset when there's room for 1' and 'taking up the slot from a more optimal class'. The fact you can't distinguish such simple logic is mind boggling.

Its really this simple: Can a thf carry their weight? If the goal is 100, can i bring my thf and carry my weight as a party slot?

In nyzul 'thief' can't carry their weight when you're talking about a DPS race. If you think thief(of any caliber) is remotely close to DPS possibilites of casual Bob on other classes, you're just trolling at this point.

The question isnt: Would I be better if i went back and time, rerolled my char and played war all these years instead? Its: Can I make this group better by joining it today, right now, as I am. Being 2nd place in perfect hypothetical world doesnt mean much when you can just practice a little harder in the real world and still be 1st. Is it 'right' or 'fair' that i have to practice harder to be 1st? Nope. Does it matter if you can be 1st anyway? Not to me, but apparently to you. Yay opinions!

Thief being a subpar DD is not opinion, it's quite fact. Can even be proven with simple math and simple gameplay knowledge.

I have fun doing the best I can with what I got so long as its still 'good enough' to complete the task and get to where i want to go and Im having fun doing it.

It's too bad that this is axillary and has no bearing on anything you quoted.

Note on your issues with shout groups. People shouting are about what they 'think' is best. Just because some idiot in jeuno wants Sam+War ONRY and turns down your thf doesnt mean your thf would not be an asset to that group. It means that guy shouting is wrong because (chances are very, very high) that (just like me getting asked to come rng over Thf for DD on VW when we have a rng for procs already) my thf is a stronger asset to kill things. My thf can beat my rng. The guy shouting doesnt know that. THat doesnt mean me going as thf is a liability vs my rng, it means dumb shouter is WRONG.

If you're thf can out DD you're ranger; especially in VW you're atrocious - in all honesty. A half naked ranger with a decent bow; would be hard-pressed not to out DD an above average thief. Not to mention the large gap in skill to play effectively. Then again, this is a simple concept you still haven't grasped.

[Karbuncle]

Yay , one thing though;

POIDH?

Theres a pick of the first Floor 100 Win i can think of on BG, Theres a THF in the party (and a PUP! lol), But at the same time, Lets say they were using the FFXI Equivalent of Steroids if i remember correctly. So I'm not sure if you can consider it a legit run.

Edit:

THF/WAR, WAR/SAM, SAM/WAR, MNK/WAR, BLU/WHM, SCH/RDM

Was their set up and yah, FFXI Steroids were involved.

[Starry]

Yea, I know about the one located elsewhere, but we all know how /that/ was done. I haven't seen a legitimate 90+ yet with a thief[not that it's the thf's fault - but goes to show population mentality]. Much less 100[as he states]. In fact, I don't even think any of the pictures I've seen of 80boss kills include a thief <.<

Which even more hilariously, this is during the time that thf would be more useful - as the new system isn't in place.

[Aana]

(My previous post was aimed at Karbuncle since yours popped up while i was writing and didnt see it, so a couple points dont really make sense in the context Starry, yay miscommunication)

Math world shows potential. When i log in is actual which (as good little math people know) is never the potential and (in this case) heavily swung by individual players.

If a PLAYER X goes to EVENT Y with PLAYERS ABCDE, will PLAYER X be an asset?
If a JOB X goes to EVENT Y with JOBS ABCDE, will JOB X be an asset?

I friggin live in the math world, but at least i know when to see how things play out. Can you not see the difference in those to questions? The two of you continue to try to tell me that I am not useful. I keep telling you that I am useful, even on a sub-optimal job. Am I, repeat, I, an asset or liability to achieving a goal. The job class of thf has enough wiggle room that it can be played strongly enough by a player to be an asset to a group of other PLAYERS. At no point has ANYONE even remotely hinted that the thf CLASS is as strong as the War CLASS. Keep telling everyone what they already know and agree with. I was aghast when you layed out the LOOOOGIIIIC TRAAAIN that warrior does more damage than Thf. Mind. Blown.

Math and potential are great tools. But they are tools. Learn to use them properly. Is job X more DD capable than job Y? Good to know. But, when i log in, do i do enough damage to warrant my existence (through greater effort)? If yes, the question then becomes is the extra effort required to BE an asset 'excessive' to the point that it needs adjustment, perhaps, but not once has anyone actually tried to make that argument in this thread anyway.

BossMan: You know what would be ideal? A PHD in accounting for this position! Itd be perfect! Theyd be stellar! ALL our cashiers need to be PHDs in accounting because its efficient! If everyone has PHDs, the accounting ones are the best to take for these cashier positions!
MidBossMan: Suure boss....>_>

next week:
BossMan: Why dont we have a PHD in accounting here!? Who is this worthless POS high school graduate here!?
MidBossMan: Well....sure an accounting PHD would be 'better' but....there arent exactly thousands of accountant PHDs looking for work in our area.....and we dont really NEED that much firepower anyway for this job >_>

Keep living in your imaginary world where everyone needs to be have a PHD in damage to be relevant. In-Game, a myriad of people can DO THE JOB REQUIRED. You dont need a PHD in damage to do an entry level damage job.

You guys keep acting like its a race when the HUGE vast majority of this game is about crossing the finish line. Why the hell do you NEED to rape a VW mob in under 5 minutes? Does the world end if you take 6? You have friggin 30. Does it make 1 damn bit of difference if you take 16 minutes to kill something instead of 15? If you make 10 million a year, do you really NEED to make 11? You can live happily ever after with either. This isnt about getting kicked to the street and not making enough to feed your family so you need more money, just like at this point every job can do enough damage to kill pretty much anything. You just want more damage/money so you can have more damage/money even though all your basic needs and future security have been met.

Is there a line where even at maximum (mathematical) efficiency thf cannot maintain? Of course there is. So long as there are limitations, there are limits. Amazing i know. But is that even relevant? Is there a place in the ACTUAL GAME that the bar for success is THAT damn high that a thf can no longer be successful? The only possible event in all of the game that is even remotely conceivable to that point 'might' be new NI, but I seriously doubt that a group of great players which happens to include a thf is signing a pact of failure. It is still very new and I dont have enough experience with this specific event to unequivocally say that it is simply not feasible for a player that happens to be a competent thf is not capable of assisting more than hindering a group. But I seriously doubt the bar is so high that thf is simply incapable of keeping up.

No one is saying thf keeps up with a war on paper in perfect world of magical super buffness (though given the right variable tweeks it can and does happen anyway). The question of thf balance is a practical one. Can it be played wel enough that it can succesfully participate in in-game content and succeed. Does the job itself constitute an insurmountable hurdle to success? I have yet to see anything that demonstrates that the job class has prevented a player USING that class to be successful (the closest thing to it so far is NI, which I have yet to do enough of to pass any real judgement, but based on previous NI experience and my limited new NI experience, i see no job mechanics hurdle to great to overcome.)

[Karbuncle]

THF is better than nothing at all.

THF is worse than (insert Any DD here).

You're not hindering the group directly, But you're hindering them indirectly by taking the spot that could be filled by a job that will perform your task better. Rather is directly hindering, or indirectly hindering, THF is a hindrance in most events, because its taking the spot of a job that could perform the task better than THF.

Pretty simple concept to grasp. Its called opportunity cost. Party spots are finite.

[Aana]

The concept is simple but it is based in the ideal world that has ZERO practical meaning. There is no doppelganger warrior following me around of equal skill and gear that wants to take my spot at everything I do. If I join a group, the (vast) majority of the time the group is better because im there instead of who they 'would' have picked. The end. There isnt some imaginary warrior to rep me following me around to whisk everything away from me at any moment.

Its not an 'indirect hindrance' for me to go thf. Its an imaginary hindrance that only exists in ideal world. In the actual game, players can overcome these problems on whatever job they so choose. Its not like I dont realize that if i played war the same way i do thf that i wouldnt do more damage, but i dont WANT to play war, so i dont, and that is not a barrier to my ability to be an enhancing aspect to any group i join.

Again, just because Thf is, by default, less damaging than war, does not make me as a player on thf a waste of a space. I can still add enough benefit to a group to justify my place in the party over the 'next' choice on their list because this isnt all a giant statistical excercise where we assume infinite occurrences of any event and say "hey, wars avg better than thfs therefore War>thf and therefore no thf should be used. ever." We have a limited sample that is impacted by human elements. You are taking aggregated data and applying it to individual cases. Protip: That doesnt work.

You can tell me a warrior is better than me till your blue in the face, but I log in and can only think of ~2 warriors that actually fit that idea which i have regular run-ins with, let alone compete directly with me at any given moment. This isnt a perfeect statistical bell curve.