the "When is this going to happen if ever?" thread

[Glamdring]

When is SE ever going to stop nerfing jobs and buff jobs that direly need adjustments to scale them up to the cream of the crop? It would be nice to see Dragoon standing on their own next to WARs, SAM, MNKs, DRKs and BLUs, and RDMs seeing utility alongside WHM, BLM and SCH again.

can't happen, if you scale the other jobs up to be in the same league as the current "flavor of the month" jobs, the people on the "flavor" jobs will whine about how weak THEY are, it's a never-ending cycle. Example:at 75 red mage was the end-all-be-all of healers and whm was only there to raise, if at all. So, they made white mage useful again and now the only way to find a rdm who isn't bitching about it is if you chop off their hands and tongue before you ask their opinion. I'm not saying that rdm doesn't need to be scaled up, but odds are doing so will marginalize white, black, scholar, bard or corsair depending which direction they decide to scale it.

It's not the developers problem, it's the playerbase; we find 1 way that works to beat any new content and stop looking for more, sending any job that doesn't fit the build for the strategy to the trash heap. Again, to use red mage as an example they've announced that enfeebling magic is going to start working at end-game levels; since red mage has the best chance of landing an enfeeble and there is no appreciable loss of XP on death it's entirely possible that white mages days in end-game are numberred once the enfeebling is worked in to "the only way" to do (fill in the blank). So how is this a "playerbase" problem? Well, white, black, blue, summoner, bard, nin, cor, sch, and to some extent pld and dark are all capable of enfeebling a target (the enfeebs vary), but the playerbase will simply ignore that and call the jobs "gimp" since red will be the accepted enfeebler.

This goes for any adjustment they make/content they add. Seriously, give it about 3 weeks for the posted strategies to get out there after the update where this happens, then watch the forums here, you'll see.

[Alderin]

I disagree to some extent. I believe while trying to "balance" jobs, they effectively get unbalanced - in a game mechanics sense.

Let us look at the recent one - WAR & MNK were top dog during Abyssea days and beyond, for the simple fact of superior Empyrean Weapon Skills and the introduction to Impetus / Blood Rage. While DRK and SAM got left out on this count. Now while trying to balance these jobs, WAR & MNK got nerfs while SAM and DRK got buffs (in forms of merit weapon skills). The pyramid has in fact reversed and it is now DRK and SAM being extremely powerful. While both WAR and MNK can hold their own hand pretty well, even after nerf - merit weapon skills pushed DRK and SAM's ability beyond WAR and MNK (DRK especially).

My point is quite simply, while trying to balance jobs, the stronger get weaker and the weaker get stronger - rather then a simple "the weaker get stronger". The better jobs get dealt nerfs, when the weaker jobs get buffs - therefore creating unbalance.

I will close by saying I am not a MNK or WAR fanboy, as I have all 4 of these jobs levelled and geared reasonably well, however if WAR and MNK were left alone when the nerf card was being played, I believe you would see more "balance".

[Rewyen]

Nerf...

[Kagetachi]

When are they going to really finish the story?

[Sarick]

Make it so guard and Parry can gain skill even if they fail to proc like evasion is setup. The system is broken ATM where the only way to get skill is to succeed. With the extremely low procs high evasion counter, and shadows compounding the success rate it's like a lottery ticket to get a skill up. The art of skilling up shouldn't be gathering 40 mobs at once or being a full time tank.

[Glamdring]

Make it so guard and Parry can gain skill even if they fail to proc like evasion is setup. The system is broken ATM where the only way to get skill is to succeed. With the extremely low procs high evasion counter, and shadows compounding the success rate it's like a lottery ticket to get a skill up. The art of skilling up shouldn't be gathering 40 mobs at once or being a full time tank.

I seem to recall them saying right after the skill-up upgrade that they were going to address defensive skill-up rates, so yeah, when are they actually going to do that?

In that same vein, Raja's ring, etc. were also supposed to get upgraded to continue growing as we players did. Anyone noticed any sign of that actually happening?

[Glamdring]

I disagree to some extent. I believe while trying to "balance" jobs, they effectively get unbalanced - in a game mechanics sense.

Let us look at the recent one - WAR & MNK were top dog during Abyssea days and beyond, for the simple fact of superior Empyrean Weapon Skills and the introduction to Impetus / Blood Rage. While DRK and SAM got left out on this count. Now while trying to balance these jobs, WAR & MNK got nerfs while SAM and DRK got buffs (in forms of merit weapon skills). The pyramid has in fact reversed and it is now DRK and SAM being extremely powerful. While both WAR and MNK can hold their own hand pretty well, even after nerf - merit weapon skills pushed DRK and SAM's ability beyond WAR and MNK (DRK especially).

My point is quite simply, while trying to balance jobs, the stronger get weaker and the weaker get stronger - rather then a simple "the weaker get stronger". The better jobs get dealt nerfs, when the weaker jobs get buffs - therefore creating unbalance.

I will close by saying I am not a MNK or WAR fanboy, as I have all 4 of these jobs levelled and geared reasonably well, however if WAR and MNK were left alone when the nerf card was being played, I believe you would see more "balance".

part of that is a base trait thing, certain jobs are supposed to do better in areas than others. Melee is largely the flavor of the month because Zerg is the current chosen strat for almost everything. Said it about when these forums came out, as an example it's entirely possible that my bard isn't SUPPOSED to hit as hard as your War. Now dark... well they sat around being irrelevant for a VERY long time despite being intended to be 1 of the 3 hardest hitting melees. The more concentrated a job is supposed to be in 1 area, the weaker in another. Sam is supposed to be the hardest hitting melee, especially with TP moves, War is supposed to be slightly less, compensated by better defense, HP and broader weapon/armor choice, dark slow heavy hits augmented by magic damage but only mediocre defense; while monk parses out about the same DPS it's by a completely different mechanism-punches in bunches and def coming from counter, eva, dodge and the HP pool from hell.

Playstyle dictates their utility end-game. Nukers rock, but they aren't currently getting the love because of a. emphasis on Zerg by players, and b. SE went overboard on AoE that could 1-shot squishier jobs (although they are curently addressing this). You want a job that really suffers look at ranger, it's originally intended to be a DD on par with a BLM and also from a distance. Unfortunately, the damage calc for ranged damage hasn't scaled well in to end-game with the additional 24 levels, but if SE were to correct it then it's entirely possible that RNG is 1-shotting almost everything including NMs up to at least 75, and SE (wisely) doesn't want to go there. The alternative-putting in a different calc system for ranged damage triggered by your level being 76+ would probably be alot more work than we think.

I'm certainly not saying these fixes should not be done. Ideally the only reason a party/alliance should be turning you down on ANY job you choose to show up is because that role is already coverred. They made 20 different jobs because different people like to play different ways and the job choices are supposed to accomodate that. Unfortunately, the players won't. Putting in more varied content that needs to be addressed through the addition of x type party role is one way to restore relevance, although I've never been a fan of players forcing me into jobs I don't want, I doubt I'd be any more fond of the Devs doing it. I still have a sour taste in my mouth from ACP at 75 when I only had bst and bard at that level-neither job being a stand-out at the fight, even if we did eventually beat it with some wierd strat I devised that I can't currently remember.

seriously, it's a problem. no matter what the devs try to implement to keep everyone involved the players hi-jack it into a single mold and woe unto ye should ye deviate from the mold.

[Sarick]

I seem to recall them saying right after the skill-up upgrade that they were going to address defensive skill-up rates, so yeah, when are they actually going to do that?

In that same vein, Raja's ring, etc. were also supposed to get upgraded to continue growing as we players did. Anyone noticed any sign of that actually happening?

That's why I posted it.

[Catsby]

When will relics, mythics and empyrean weapons not require a brainless grind to obtain and maintain?

[Zinato]

When are they going to allow Storyline fights to be repeatable at will? At least then I can play some sort of story for alittle bit since, that is after all what RPGs are based on, and XI has been lacking that recently.