[dev1087] Job Adjustments: White Mage

[Savlyn]

Point 1. It will definitely become a "must have" spell for WHM because that's simply how the player base is. When something that will essentially make every fight in the game faster (-2 mins of weakness), players will become used to having this and make it as a part of their strategy. It happens all the time, with everything in this game. X item is released, everyone thinks X is too hard, and only some people will get it. People get X, and parties start to get used to people with it, so people without it aren't considered good players any more. Give it a few months, tops. It happened when Abyssea was released with Empys and AF+2 (ON SPECULATION purely, people assumed that most of the "normal players" would never get +2 or Empys, but look at what is considered "good" nowadays- i.e. VW shouts that say "Emp DDs only".)

Point 2. I'm glad this is going to happen. If its a scroll, I'm selling it. It means that since I leveled my WHM in Abyssea and am 99% of the time forced to play that job in shout groups & LS events, both of those groups will want a WHM who does have Arise. I would much rather have someone else healing me so that I can play a job that I like, not just one that I'm good at. In short, glad its going to be hard because this means that the people who do like WHM and want to be the best they can be will have something that is preferred and to be able to gloat about.

[Kalilla]

Objective worth, sure. Subjective worth you can't judge. Some people are just in it for the rarity or completion, and to them it would be a valuable item, regardless of its effect.

This

Some things people just want to have a challenge to get, and when it comes to scrolls there aren't very many rare scrolls in this game. Some people just like to have a challenge, and Arise is just a perk spell so I'm perfectly fine with it being rare.

[Hayward]

This

Some things people just want to have a challenge to get, and when it comes to scrolls there aren't very many rare scrolls in this game. Some people just like to have a challenge, and Arise is just a perk spell so I'm perfectly fine with it being rare.

I can describe this argument in one word: GARBAGE.

This obsession with rarity--in a video game, mind you--for the sake of status has always been ridiculous in my view. Why S-E (or, more specifically, team Tanaka) continues to cater to clowns who get off on looking down on people who aren't as "hardcore" as they are is beyond my understading at this point.

If there are a series of exploration quests needed, well and good. Requiring a series of HNM drops or making it a sub-1% drop from one is a bridge too far. But I doubt this point will sink into the heads of those who see themselves as a 10th-degree Black Belt in FFXI and disciples of Matser Tanaka.

[Arcon]

I can describe this argument in one word: GARBAGE.

I could describe you with one word: idiot. But wait, there's more! It's not just a random insult because I'm butthurt (like several of your posts), I actually have a good argument to back up my statement:

This obsession with rarity--in a video game, mind you--for the sake of status has always been ridiculous in my view. Why S-E (or, more specifically, team Tanaka) continues to cater to clowns who get off on looking down on people who aren't as "hardcore" as they are is beyond my understading at this point.

That's the argument: you admit it yourself. You admit that you're incapable of following our thought processes. Since our thought process is as simple as "I like it", it speaks volumes of your mental capacity, or rather lack thereof.

But I doubt this point will sink into the heads of those who see themselves as a 10th-degree Black Belt in FFXI and disciples of Matser Tanaka.

I know you doubt it, again, because you're an idiot. You don't seem to understand that there's more than black and white, that there is no such thing as "master Tanaka". People love to scream white knight on here when anyone is saying anything that contradicts their opinion, those people are usually the ones too stupid to realize that it's just what it is, an opinion.

Let me ask you a question, though. Have you ever played a single-player game? If so, did you beat it? If yes, why? What did you get from it? The end boss didn't drop an amazing item you wanted, right? Obviously, because the game was over then. So why do it? Maybe for the accomplishment?

You'll argue that this is different because of some retarded reason, but it's not, it's the exact same thing. Why do you think people are doing WotG missions? To get that horribly broken earring at the end? Fuck no, they're doing it to have it finished, because that's part of the game, getting achievements.

Let me ask you another question. Assume you get the ultimate end item in the game (a weapon with 5 delay and 999 damage, for example). Now what? Are you done with the game? Are you gonna quit? Or help everyone else to get it so you can all quit together? Is items and gear really the only thing you're striving for? What for? What's the ultimate purpose? Because it's an achievement. The exact same thing we're asking for.

Regardless, the fact is you simply cannot understand other peoples' motivation to play the game. You insult everyone who disagrees with you, and even worse, you accuse them of "team Tanaka", because obviously everyone who disagrees with your divine opinion is a soulless creature who wants to devour the game. You're arrogant, assuming your opinion is worth more than others', and ignorant, not realizing your mistakes and not even your own incompetence, and that's one of the worst combinations of human characteristics one can have.

[Kalilla]

I can describe this argument in one word: GARBAGE.

This obsession with rarity--in a video game, mind you--for the sake of status has always been ridiculous in my view. Why S-E (or, more specifically, team Tanaka) continues to cater to clowns who get off on looking down on people who aren't as "hardcore" as they are is beyond my understading at this point.

If there are a series of exploration quests needed, well and good. Requiring a series of HNM drops or making it a sub-1% drop from one is a bridge too far. But I doubt this point will sink into the heads of those who see themselves as a 10th-degree Black Belt in FFXI and disciples of Matser Tanaka.

I'm a helpful and kind person, so I'm not going to trash your post. I will however give you my reason as to why I want rare scrolls, regardless if you think my opinion is garbage or not.

I am not apart of team Tanaka, nor do I agree with the way the game has been going. That is my opinion, and I'm allowed to have one. I for one believe that people around the world enjoy collecting rare items because they enjoy doing it more than actually owning it. It might be an investment, it might be for fun, regardless of the reasons behind doing so, they enjoy doing it.

Just because this is a virtual world does not make people immune to this desire.

Let's say you have two options when you create a character:

1. The game asks you if you want all your jobs at level 99 and a bunch of nice gear to start your character off, while you recieve a random relic/mythic/empy once a month just for paying the subscription cost.
2. You deny the above, and play from scratch working your way up to gearing your character and each job class you wish to be.

#1, I believe most players now wish this happened. If anything takes longer than a few hours to do they get furious, no matter what it is.

#2, I do not believe most players today would choose this, even though it would be my choice today. I absolutely hate leveling, but I don't believe I should have access to a job if I don't work at it. I don't want things handed to me, period.

You probably are someone who wants something handed to them, and you are allowed to feel that way. I do not, and I play this game to spend time with my friends and tackle on the challenges in this game (with the 6 hours a week I have to play). I do not show off, I don't have a town set, I don't look down on others just because their gear does not compare to what I own. I have had only one role model in this game that I looked up to and try to make my WHM like theirs. I have only been WHM in this game since day one and I am fine with this.

I am satisfied with where my WHM is today, but that doesn't mean I don't want a challenge. I could go after Yagrush but honestly I'd rather spend that time helping my friends than using it all for myself. I have no desire to have some fancy gear set that no one else has just to look cool, I just want to work for the armor I want. I stopped leveling my WHM just so I could have a Nobles Tunic, and I stopped leveling for a very long time. I had to save up 13,450,000 gil way back in the day, and loved that body. I worked for it and earned it, I didn't get it just to show it off to others so I could look down on them. I did it because I wanted to make my job better, and it took me more than a month to do so with my limited play time. I kept that body for years, and sold it back for 300k so I could buy an Aristocrats for 1.8 mil. I have no regrets for putting that work into it, and if I could of done it over again I would of because I had fun doing it.

There are people who just want to have some challenge in this game, I personally do not think time sinks are challenges. I think SE doesn't know how to make this game more challenging, so all they know how to do is make crazy long time sinks. Just look at the Part 2 of relic trials, just ridiculous. I read somewhere that it would take you 2.5 - 12.5 times the amount of the maximum gil cap just to buy enough to finish the trial. SE, just wtf?

I appreciate the counter argument, but I think your mind isn't in the right place. People are going to want to have challenges in video games to obtain rare items because they enjoy the journey there. There are going to be people who want to get them to show them off and look down on you, but they are probably 16 years old anyways, and if not then they sure are acting like it.

[Economizer]

Let's say you have two options when you create a character:

1. The game asks you if you want all your jobs at level 99 and a bunch of nice gear to start your character off, while you recieve a random relic/mythic/empy once a month just for paying the subscription cost.

Except it is a 96.99% drop Claustrum, 3% Farsha, and .01% drop of something else every month.

Anyways, I seriously think people shouldn't worry too much about it being hard to get. It might be a challenge but I seriously doubt they'll pull something that is stupid like tying it to a .01% drop rate on a fight you can only do once per real life day or marrying it to a relic or mythic weapon. One thing I could see them making it one of the rewards for say, doing the Cait Sith BCNM whenever they get around to adding that - it would be hard to get because I'm assuming we'll need to have finished all of the WotG missions. Until we have acquisition information I don't think we should be too harsh aside from the standard opinions we give on this stuff.

[Camiie]

Let's say you have two options when you create a character:

1. The game asks you if you want all your jobs at level 99 and a bunch of nice gear to start your character off, while you recieve a random relic/mythic/empy once a month just for paying the subscription cost.
2. You deny the above, and play from scratch working your way up to gearing your character and each job class you wish to be.

#1, I believe most players now wish this happened. If anything takes longer than a few hours to do they get furious, no matter what it is.

#2, I do not believe most players today would choose this, even though it would be my choice today. I absolutely hate leveling, but I don't believe I should have access to a job if I don't work at it. I don't want things handed to me, period.

I haven't seen anyone asking for #1 and you thinking that they are is just absurd. I see people use this argument a lot, and it's always ridiculous. You are aware there are many levels of difficulty in between "everything handed to you" and "extremely difficult to obtain" are you not? Your #1 and #2 options don't seem to indicate that you are.

Just because someone doesn't want a spell to be "extremely difficult to obtain" doesn't mean they don't want a challenge. It doesn't mean they want things handed to them. Just because someone doesn't choose "Nightmare" difficulty in a video game doesn't mean they want to Game Shark their way through it.

Remember this is SE here. The last time I heard them talk out loud about things being "extremely difficult to obtain" was when relics were introduced. Is it really so terrible that people want to make sure a spell isn't in the same category as an at 75 cap relic?

[Economizer]

Well I'd hope this scroll is useful beyond just being a status symbol. I don't mind the people who want a status symbol, I honestly just want another small way to push my advantage over White Mages who just level it to fill the slot or have the job as third or fifth priority. It isn't any one thing (like this scroll) that makes a White Mage better at their job then another once both are playing competently, but rather a large number of small things adding up, like having the right sub, having the right gear for the situation, having a good barspell set, having all your skills leveled (even melee skills), and so on.

It will already have limited usefulness because a good group will have a strategy that doesn't revolve around dying repeatedly. The only place where this scroll will make a major difference is in large party wipe situations due to the extra timer and lowman.

Honestly, if you are worried about this scroll making or breaking your inclusion from a group, it won't unless you don't have all the other small things set up. Now the question is, will this be worth the effort? Until we know how SE plans to include this in the game and what the official MP, casting time, and recasting time stats are, we don't know. If it is a quest as long as Sleepga II, it will probably be worth the effort. If it is a drop from Voidwatch or Walk of Echoes it will be less then one million gil in six months. If it is a super rare drop from some event it might be expensive and hard to get. Honestly I'm secretly hoping it is a quested WHM-only fight that gives a R/E scroll for clearing it that involves clubbing down some blunt weak monster... it could either be a solo fight or a party fight but the jobs selection would be restricted for a Final Fantasy I tribute.

And if it is a BCNM fight that requires 60 or so of an item and has the same drop rate as a Kraken Club and nothing else of value drops from the same fight SE hates us and I will not be happy because this quote,

However, the development team would like to grant players more opportunities to obtain it.

was not what happened with the freaking Kraken Club.

[Economizer]

Are you people serious about making everything so difficult to obtain? It's magic. Magic was never this difficult to obtain until the post-Abyssea team started making Final Fantasy XI: The Time Sink Edition.

Raise III, Utsusemi: Ichi/Ni, Phalanx, Sleepga II, Mage's Ballad I, Army's Paeon V, select Recall/Teleport scrolls, Warp II, Retrace. All of these spells are over 500k to buy from the AH (although only 2-3 of these are over 1M). I don't know if this means they're hard to obtain by everyone's standards but by mine anything over 500k is something I will try to avoid buying due to militant frugality (plus obtaining something for yourself rather then paying for it has a special something to it). I only buy big ticket items if I've failed to get it myself and it is worth the price. And honestly, I don't expect Arise to be over 1M unless it is worth the price or incredibly rare.

[saevel]

Raise III, Utsusemi: Ichi/Ni, Phalanx, Sleepga II, Mage's Ballad I, Army's Paeon V, select Recall/Teleport scrolls, Warp II, Retrace. All of these spells are over 500k to buy from the AH (although only 2-3 of these are over 1M). I don't know if this means they're hard to obtain by everyone's standards but by mine anything over 500k is something I will try to avoid buying due to militant frugality (plus obtaining something for yourself rather then paying for it has a special something to it). I only buy big ticket items if I've failed to get it myself and it is worth the price. And honestly, I don't expect Arise to be over 1M unless it is worth the price or incredibly rare.

Except .... most of those are quest-able or easily obtainable through a BC fight. Their only expensive because the quest ones are one time obtain only and people don't like to both with level capped BC fights anymore. I Paid zero for my Utsusemi scroll, which is far less then 500K.

Making this a quest spell would be fine, even if it's a long involved quest that has multiple "wait till JP midnight / conquest tally", eventually the aspiring WHM will obtain it. Making it a 0.01% drop off a Fight that you'll only do once per week is beyond ridiculous. I only mention that last part because SE said various things wouldn't require "The very best" gear to obtain and would be obtaining by "the majority of players" and we saw how that turned out. Imagine if they actually wanted to make something obtainable to "only a select few" and "extremely difficult". I'm looking at rank 1 mogbanaza type rare when they say that (as in only a few per server).