PLD tanks Vs. MNK tanks *Ding* FIGHT!

[TheDirtyHobo]

Edit: Had a random thought... If shield procs had 0 hate loss like counter wouldn't that be a decent step into the right direction?

Again, missing the forest for all the trees, etc. PLD already keeps hate as well as MNK, maybe infinitesimally less so that the mob doesn't look at them, but they still should have capped hate and will hold it off the squishier jobs like a BLM or WHM. People who bitch and moan that PLD "can't get hate" on any longer than 2 minutes fight are PLDs that suck at doing their job because they turtle too hard.

The point is that PLD doesn't do as much damage, which leads to a longer fight (which, ironically, leads to even more total damage taken). The only way to 'fix' PLD is make them do more damage, which throws the whole offensively- vs. defensively-oriented job spectrum out of whack even further than it already is. PLD was probably the only job that I genuinely enjoyed levelling, and I hate to say it, but it's just dead in the water.

[Sonshou]

It seem to me that Paladin is already an expert in mitigating damage and surviing in battles. More pressing is that with right party setup, another job can tank as good but kill the monster faster. Which everyone don't like a long duration battle. But is Paladin no longer necessary?

I would like to think... the guy in the shinny armor should made to tank more easy, or say grant more ability to protect other party member instead of saving his own shinny bottom. Like drawing in a party member from distance and lower his or her enmity at the same time. This is something a Knight would do yea? the sence you would expect in fantasy novels yea?

Instead of boosting their damage capability, how about give them more chance to protect his crew? give them area ability to draw monsters' attention? or spells that prevent his party member from being victim of lesser foe while facing a strong enemy?

I like to see Paladins able to do more multitasking without changing target, and do it with ease. I think area ability and spells against foes will help Paladins do those job well, and make it a more unique job. Not only shielding pt from one monster, but many monsters.

Also.... in fantasy stories often that a dying knight can terrorize his enemy with single gaze, wouldn't that be extra cool if PLD lower than certain HP have chance to terrorize target?

[Shakuzen]

grant more ability to protect other party member instead of saving his own shinny bottom.

I like that. While reading that line I had a vague image of a Paladin sort of...assisting a MNK tank on an NM, using abilities that only he had that increases -others- defensive capabilities o.O
Random idea that most likely wouldn't have a dream of working but I wonder if it'd be possible to change PLD into more of an assisting role for the tank? (I don't know, i'm tired)

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

The only way to 'fix' PLD is make them do more damage, which throws the whole offensively- vs. defensively-oriented job spectrum out of whack even further than it already is.

Honestly, I think that damage has already been done by adding good mitigation to SAM and MNK... or arguably even further back with the addition of NIN. A lot of the MNK tank arguments are just rehashes of the old PLD vs. NIN: shadows are better defense than Defense, it's better to have a tank that is also a DD than a tank that is just a tank, tank hate is fine if you have DDs be careful/use Trick Attack but why bother when a DD+tank can hold hate without it, etc.

There hasn't been a meaningful offense vs. defense tradeoff in this game (in general, although some particular jobs have one) since RotZ, which was before US release. There are some jobs good at attacking, some jobs good at defending, and some jobs good at both (leaving aside other roles like healing, buffing, debuffing, and crowd control). The unique part of the problem today is not that PLD is good at neither, but that the entire role of being good at defense is now unnecessary and in many fights counterproductive. If all-out offense, shadows, and Cure V/VI can get you through a fight alive, why bother bringing a job that specializes in mitigation, or using the group tactics needed to allow them to take hits instead of someone more vulnerable?

"More vulnerable" doesn't actually mean "could die at any moment" anymore like it used to, and that's the real problem with tanking today, IMO. We need more mobs that will Deadly Hold (or whatever) a low-DEF job for 1.5x their maximum HP.

[Secure]

Getting Loot + Getting loot faster = What everyone wants.

When we follow this formula it's easy to see that no matter what any job can do, the jobs that do it faster and more efficiently are going to be the crowd favorites. Can other jobs still fulfill the first part of the above equation? Yes. Will most people want to sacrifice speed and efficiency in order to play a less favorable job? Probably not.

Point in case: most of these arguments are really efficiency vs capability. You can't keep arguing that your job CAN do something when people are trying to argue that the job is not EFFICIENT at doing something. All the talk of DPS, TP gain, enmity gain etc. is really moot because of the design of Abyssea. I've seen parties of pink MNKs/THFs successfully killing many NMs you'd think would just lay waste to them, but because of atma and a WHM with insane refresh they manage to muddle through and still get what they want out of it. Just about anything can be done with a NIN/WHM and most of the duo teams I see are a single NIN two boxing with a WHM mule that's wearing electrum rings or something. All the new content has opened the door for untold versatility from pretty much every job in FFXI and removed the funnel that was keeping people bottlenecked into a specific role. It's a double edged sword, you CAN do more, but you probably aren't the only one anymore and chances are someone has found a way to do it faster and better. My Aegis is crying like a baby but it's just going to drown in that mog satchel while my Verethragna MNK is destroying everything I cross paths with.

[Hoshi]

Would it break the game if enmity were given an overhaul and DD jobs had a harder time gaining it while defensive jobs (or JAs) made it easier to hold enmity? I don't dislike the current setup where we have our DD tank but I have noticed a lot of clamoring in the ranger forums to fix enmity and I think that's part of the issue here as well.

[Karbuncle]

PLD has nearly 0 Offensive Capabilities, to the point that while yeah, it can take a hit, But its so slow I'm pretty sure any job in the game can out DD a PLD. I mean all of them. Even SMN and WHM, BRD Could too. And You can't blame players for wanting to take the shortest point from A > B, using a PLD is a slower route, You'll kill slower, and it gives nearly no benefit.

You'd kill a mob faster Avatar-Kiting it than you would putting a PLD on it, and probably safer. Its that sad right now. The Situation of PLD has degraded and it remains untouched in the right areas.

What needs to be done is a massive over-haul of PLDs Offensive Capabilities. Give Shield Blocks a 25~% Chance of Countering, Counter Damage would be based on shield size. Something like.
*Size1: 50% of damage taken is countered
*Size2: 75% of Damage is Countered
*Size3: 100% of Damage is Countered
*Size4: 125%
*Size5: 150%
*Size6: 175%
(The Above damage i mean, Say the enemy is hitting you for 100 Damage unblocked, If you blocked and the counter-activated with a Size1 shield, You would (Like a normal counter) take 0 Damage, and the Enemy would take 50, With a Size6, You'd take 0 and Enemy would take 175 DMG from the counter, would add a small bit of Over-all damage.)

Could Give it Fencer at a stronger Level. Give it a Separate Trait "Fencer II" That, While doing what Fencer normally does, Also Increases Attack Speed (5%), and Attack (5%), and Critical hit Damage (5%) when wielding Sword/Shield.

Could Give us Shields with Offensive capabilities as well. Give us a Shield Like Sentinel Shield, instead of buttloads of MDB/Enmity shields, Give us one with Attack, DBL Attack, Haste, maybe one that increases Reprisal Effect (maybe Double Reprisals Damage?) etc, Something that would increase our DoT and not be a terribly outdated shield.

Could Allow Enlight to work on all hits of a Multi-hit Weapon, and degrade Slower (will have to do the same to DRKs). Could also give Enlight a Dbl.atk Effect. Degrading the same rate as the Additional Damage/accuracy bonus.

(This might be a repeat). Enhance Swift Blade, give Swift Blade a higher fTP/Mods, and make it a Critical hit Weaponskill, not more powerful than Chant-du-Sygne, But closer on the level of Eviscer/RR.

in terms of Enmity, Give PLD an Ability Similar to Accomplice/Collaborate, Except that have it Negate Enmity Generation for everyone in range for 30~ Seconds, Hell call it "Castle Walls" Job Trait, and it gives "Rampart" The effect to do the Above. During Rampart, No Enmity will be generated by players hit other than the PLD. won't help a lot, but a little.


I can't think of anything else, But the gist of what I'm saying is PLD needs help Damage wise, not Defensive Wise. It could be the most defensive job in the game, But if it kills really slow, 9/10 players will choose kill-speed over Safety-net. I'm not suggesting all the above ideas, But nearly suggesting them as to elaborate on what i mean as "More Offensive Abilities". It doesn't need to be so broken that other jobs are obsoleted, but given them the ability to at least keep up with DDs might make it more acceptable.

I can't make Promises >.>, But the way to fix PLD isn't Defensive, Its Offensive.

and that Nerfing other jobs is -not- the Solution. NERFING is never the Solution. It is only a problem.

[Aeonk]

PLD has nearly 0 Offensive Capabilities, to the point that while yeah, it can take a hit, But its so slow I'm pretty sure any job in the game can out DD a PLD. I mean all of them. Even SMN and WHM, BRD Could too. And You can't blame players for wanting to take the shortest point from A > B, using a PLD is a slower route, You'll kill slower, and it gives nearly no benefit.

You'd kill a mob faster Avatar-Kiting it than you would putting a PLD on it, and probably safer. Its that sad right now. The Situation of PLD has degraded and it remains untouched in the right areas.

What needs to be done is a massive over-haul of PLDs Offensive Capabilities. Give Shield Blocks a 25~% Chance of Countering, Counter Damage would be based on shield size. Something like.
*Size1: 50% of damage taken is countered
*Size2: 75% of Damage is Countered
*Size3: 100% of Damage is Countered
*Size4: 125%
*Size5: 150%
*Size6: 175%
(The Above damage i mean, Say the enemy is hitting you for 100 Damage unblocked, If you blocked and the counter-activated with a Size1 shield, You would (Like a normal counter) take 0 Damage, and the Enemy would take 50, With a Size6, You'd take 0 and Enemy would take 175 DMG from the counter, would add a small bit of Over-all damage.)

Could Give it Fencer at a stronger Level. Give it a Separate Trait "Fencer II" That, While doing what Fencer normally does, Also Increases Attack Speed (5%), and Attack (5%), and Critical hit Damage (5%) when wielding Sword/Shield.

Could Give us Shields with Offensive capabilities as well. Give us a Shield Like Sentinel Shield, instead of buttloads of MDB/Enmity shields, Give us one with Attack, DBL Attack, Haste, maybe one that increases Reprisal Effect (maybe Double Reprisals Damage?) etc, Something that would increase our DoT and not be a terribly outdated shield.

Could Allow Enlight to work on all hits of a Multi-hit Weapon, and degrade Slower (will have to do the same to DRKs). Could also give Enlight a Dbl.atk Effect. Degrading the same rate as the Additional Damage/accuracy bonus.

(This might be a repeat). Enhance Swift Blade, give Swift Blade a higher fTP/Mods, and make it a Critical hit Weaponskill, not more powerful than Chant-du-Sygne, But closer on the level of Eviscer/RR.

in terms of Enmity, Give PLD an Ability Similar to Accomplice/Collaborate, Except that have it Negate Enmity Generation for everyone in range for 30~ Seconds, Hell call it "Castle Walls" Job Trait, and it gives "Rampart" The effect to do the Above. During Rampart, No Enmity will be generated by players hit other than the PLD. won't help a lot, but a little.


I can't think of anything else, But the gist of what I'm saying is PLD needs help Damage wise, not Defensive Wise. It could be the most defensive job in the game, But if it kills really slow, 9/10 players will choose kill-speed over Safety-net. I'm not suggesting all the above ideas, But nearly suggesting them as to elaborate on what i mean as "More Offensive Abilities". It doesn't need to be so broken that other jobs are obsoleted, but given them the ability to at least keep up with DDs might make it more acceptable.

I can't make Promises >.>, But the way to fix PLD isn't Defensive, Its Offensive.

and that Nerfing other jobs is -not- the Solution. NERFING is never the Solution. It is only a problem.

Don't make suggestions on a job you know nothing about. PLD's DD capabilities are really not bad at all with razed ruins. Vorpal Blade (or CDC even) is a great WS and allows PLD to at least keep up. Now... if your PLD's are stacking HP and refresh atma's then it's their fault their dmg is garbage. But give the job it's due credit... it's been DD'ing a long time now.

[Greatguardian]

That aside, it still seems a better suggestion than most of the garbage posted online. PLD has great WS access, A+ skill ratings, and and fairly hot Armor/Weapon access. It just has absolutely 0 Offensive JAs/Spells when it uses its best Offensive (and in most cases Defensive as well) subjob. Enlight was a nice gesture, but unless you're casting it between fights and only between fights, you lose more damage putting it up than you gain. PLD can keep up with most mid-tier DDs just fine, but no one wants mid-tier DDs either.

[Karbuncle]

Don't make suggestions on a job you know nothing about. PLD's DD capabilities are really not bad at all with razed ruins. Vorpal Blade (or CDC even) is a great WS and allows PLD to at least keep up. Now... if your PLD's are stacking HP and refresh atma's then it's their fault their dmg is garbage. But give the job it's due credit... it's been DD'ing a long time now.

First off, insulting me completely unprovoked is Inflammatory. If you cannot post without childish Insults i suggest you do not respond at all, It is and was uncalled for.

Secondly, While I'm aware Vorpal Blade is a Decent Weaponskill, It is Simply not good enough. Ignoring the Problem by saying its fine its simply not a good way to get a job fixed. Yes CDC is a great Weaponskill as well, However the requirement of Having an Empyrean WS just to simply make a job viable in an Offensive way is not a good thing, and even then, it is simply just not powerful enough to fix what PLD needs fixing in. Its a step in the right direction I never Suggested otherwise.

I only suggested a way to improve on what PLD needs most, Offensive Capabilities. I'm Sorry that what i said apparently offended you. But I am not blind my friend, I Can clearly see that PLD is not used by popular means, and having PLD90 myself, as well as Multiple other main-stream current DD/Tanking jobs, I can safely say PLD is Obsoleted and Unneccessary for any and all aspects of the Current FFXI state. You do not have to agree with me as i understand it is not an opinion everyone will share.

But, If Vorpal blade and Razed Ruins was enough to make PLD a competent DD, There would not be so many "Fix PLD" Threads, and it would not be obvious to people that PLD is being obsoleted and Unused. It in itself is a powerful combo, But it is in itself not enough to fix the Core problems of PLD. I was as upset as anyone to see PLD slowly becoming Obsolete with the introduction of abyssea, and even before then with the player-base slowly switching to DD Tanks as more efficient means of Combat.

So I'll stand by my Opinion, saying an Atma combos suddenly will make PLD viable at all is an assumption and Opinion I do not share. It may make a great PLD about as good as a Mediocre Warrior, But it simply does not give PLD enough to make it useful in the Current Endgame or Exp Situations.

What needs to be done to PLD, Despite its current state, Is access to more offensive Capabilities. In the End it may have been "DD'ing for a while now" But it has not been doing it well enough alone. Cause in reality, Even the best perfect PLD will not be able to keep up with a DD of Equal intelligence and Gear. Which is sad. Because In most cases that DD would probably also Out-tank the PLD. It upsets me just as much as anyone that the job has slowly become obsoleted. But Unlike some people (Not necessarily you), I can see clearly that Paladin, In its Current state, Is simply not worth using.

I do not suggest people stop using PLD, I do not suggest people who love the job to stop playing it, And i certainly do not suggest those who play the job themselves are stupid. Above statements are my Opinions. You do not have to believe them or Accept them.

That aside, it still seems a better suggestion than most of the garbage posted online. PLD has great WS access, A+ skill ratings, and and fairly hot Armor/Weapon access. It just has absolutely 0 Offensive JAs/Spells when it uses its best Offensive (and in most cases Defensive as well) subjob. Enlight was a nice gesture, but unless you're casting it between fights and only between fights, you lose more damage putting it up than you gain. PLD can keep up with most mid-tier DDs just fine, but no one wants mid-tier DDs either.

I appreciate that you can understand What i was saying. Thank you

Edit: While saying a WHM could Out-DD it might be a step too Far, But i dunno if you've ever seen a good WHM/NIN, and Hexa is a Critical hit WS... I think You'd be surprised how well it did.

Edit2: I'm going to Sleep now, I enjoy the idea of continued conversation when i wake up!