WHM Have NO Natural Refresh Capability, WHY?

[Retsujo]

Let's not bring an argument from 2003 into this. Party setup isn't a factor in this topic, really.

[Wolfe]

I think I understand what Wolfe is saying and I agree with him. WHM hasn't recieved any great attributes in comparison to many of the other jobs, I don't think he's arguing the subjob enhancements. What I see is that Spells and Attributes that could normally fall under a healer's category were effectively disbursed to a number of new jobs created by the updates, rendering WHM relatively non-essential in the game. I can't believe that any WHM wouldn't want Auto-Refresh, or Hastega for that matter. Other jobs recieved them, why not the basic healer? ...From what I read, that's all that Wolfe asked, and all he got back was how wonderful you all are.

Thank you for seeing my point. I find it to be amazing that there are so few people who actually get what I was saying. All they see is, "screw WHM refresh, you don't need it."

[Wolfe]

Let's be realistic here.

Bard - Is an enhancer, of course they get a refresh.

Paladin - Fights the front lines of battle so can't /heal

Summoner - Goes through ridiculous MP and can't heal with an Avatar out.

Dancer - Aspir Samba I and II is for the party for jobs like PLD, RDM, BLU, DRK etcetera to keep their MP up.

Red Mage - Pretty much non-existent gear for auto-refresh as opposed to WHM, and intended for use also shouldn't /heal.

Blue Mage - Their spells have crazy MP cost and get this, can't /heal in battle as well

Black Mage - Aspir and Aspir II are Dark moves, plus their spells are crazy expensive and are likely to grab the hate after a big nuke so again, for the time being unable to heal.

Corsair - Enhancer, end off. No MP so they get it only to enhance.

Scholar - Always a bit over-powered, the sublimation upgrade was OTT.

then it's White Mage - Cure V and VI are unlikely to take the hate, they have a massive amount of equipment with auto-refresh which should always be worn when not casting, gear to get MP back from cures, and are easily able to /heal when the need arises.

The refresh on most jobs are easily balanced out.

Okay, I'll go with your layout and keep it going.

Bard ~ I know they are a support job, I stated that, and was using it to prove a point.
Paladin ~ If Paladin "can't" heal, why do they have the spell?
Summoner ~ I understand that, it would be broken if they could heal with their avatar out. Still using them to prove my point.
Dancer ~ Yes, it is for other melee jobs that use MP. Again, I stated that to help prove a point. Dancers never use it, because there are more useful dances that people would rather have active. So even though they have it, it is really rather useless.
Red Mage ~ In my personal experience, incredibly over powered but that is neither here nor there and best kept to a different thread.
Blue Mage ~ Again, I understand it is a mage job and believe it or not, most mage jobs go through their MP rather quickly.
Black Mage ~ Not going to repeat myself again.
Corsair ~ Already stated that it is a buffer job, not worth including, again.
Scholar ~ Sublimation was insanely overpowered, but how many people play SCH? Not many, it is one of the least popular jobs, although I have no idea why.

And obviously you did not read the part where I said NATURAL refresh ability, which excludes equipment and support jobs. Every job listed can recover MP naturally, except for WHM. If you pay attention, you can see, it is not as "balanced" as you would like to believe.

[Wolfe]

Let's not bring an argument from 2003 into this. Party setup isn't a factor in this topic, really.

No, it's not. If I was making a point about party setups, I would have posted that originally. Why do people keep trying to prove their point by ignoring what I said in the initial post?

"You can get refresh with armor."
"You want refresh? /RDM"
"Just go DD on your WHM and WS for more MP."
"You want refresh, get it from someone else in the party."

No, no, no, and no. Read the original post people, NATURAL REFRESH!

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I did say /heal, not heal as in cast Cure.

WHM has Clear Mind V, they /heal as well as SCH, BLM, and SMN when using /heal which they are able to as they don't need to be in the front lines of battle.

This is why PLD and SMN do get auto-refresh, as they can't heal, and WHM is a curer so doesn't have access to spells like Aspir and Refresh as that would then make WHM severely over-powered.

Every job must have it's downfall, otherwise what is the point of multiple jobs, they'd just have one DD and one MAGE. Admittedly as FFXI stands now it does focus on having one DD and one MAGE... MNK & WHM.

[Wolfe]

I think we're all trying to tell you why...

- We make MP last through conservation / management.
- We can achieve 50% cure potency with 35% stoneskin.
- We have WS's that produce large amounts of MP.
- We have access to most of the things you listed via support job: Convert, Refresh, Auto-Refresh, Sublimation, Aspir, etc.
- We can get up to 7mp/tick refresh from gear.
- We can use HMP to rest 60+ per tick (or more?).

You wanted responses from people who "ACTUALLY play WHM" - and you got us! I've been playing for 7 years, both back-line WHM and front-line WHM, and I love it to pieces!

Do I want another form of refresh to be ours, naturally? YES!

But I don't think you're going to get very many people joining a "WHM NEEDS FRESHES" army, because /SCH leveled the playing field for us ~3 years ago, allowing efficient back-line duties. Then, we got Mystic Boon ~2 years ago, allowing efficient front-line duties (in some cases) and easier soloing. Since then, we have overtaken RDM and others by maintaining unique access to the BigMcLargeHuge cures, while MP became basically unlimited.

When the next wave of updates changes things, we might need some adjustments to remain balanced, but until then I think the polls have shown we're pretty happy. And our happiness is another reason why.

Okay, again, you are not paying attention. Natural Refresh. WithOUT the use of support jobs or armor.

- We make MP last through conservation / management. ~ Based off your support job/armor. Wrong.
- We can achieve 50% cure potency with 35% stoneskin. ~ Based off your support job/armor. Wrong.
- We have WS's that produce large amounts of MP. ~ Based off your weapon and whether or not you hit, unlike Sublimation, Refresh, Convert, Light Arts, all of which are 100% and never miss. Wrong.
- We have access to most of the things you listed via support job: Convert, Refresh, Auto-Refresh, Sublimation, Aspir, etc. ~ Are you paying attention? NATURAL! Wrong.
- We can get up to 7mp/tick refresh from gear. ~ Based off your armor. Wrong.
- We can use HMP to rest 60+ per tick (or more?). ~ Based off your armor. Wrong.

Yeah, great job defeating me except for the part where you FAILED! Read the post. Natural. Refresh. WHM have none.

I have been playing this game since March 14, 2005. I have tanked on the job and done a damn good job (because my THF friend thought it would be funny to Trick Attack onto me). The one thing that has always remained is, why doesn't WHM have some kind of natural refresh? I also want to know why Mithra can eat raw fish and Galka can eat raw meat, but no other race in the game has any kind of race specific ability. I'm not expecting people to rally with me and demand WHM get refresh. I'm waiting for someone to provide some REAL evidence to state why WHM NEVER got refresh to begin with. There are plenty of things in the game that an be explained if you look for it. Why does RDM have Divine Magic when they have no Divine based spells? Because Dia used to be Divine based. Why does DRG have two 2 hour job abilities (listed in the data files)? Because "Call Wyvern" used to be considered their 2 hour ability and it is also why they never had to reprogram anything to prevent the ability from showing up when you /DRG. Here's another one for you, why does Rank 15 exist in the data files, but we can only get to Rank 10?

This is another one of those questions that is left unanswered by Square Enix and I want an answer. Unless someone can provide REAL evidence for why they never got it (like /DRG Call Wyvern), I am going to keep at it and demanding an answer. It may never come, or I may get a GM to reply shortly after posting this. I won't be happy until I can get a definite answer.

[Wolfe]

I did say /heal, not heal as in cast Cure.

WHM has Clear Mind V, they /heal as well as SCH, BLM, and SMN when using /heal which they are able to as they don't need to be in the front lines of battle.

This is why PLD and SMN do get auto-refresh, as they can't heal, and WHM is a curer so doesn't have access to spells like Aspir and Refresh as that would then make WHM severely over-powered.

Every job must have it's downfall, otherwise what is the point of multiple jobs, they'd just have one DD and one MAGE. Admittedly as FFXI stands now it does focus on having one DD and one MAGE... MNK & WHM.

So, according to your logic, SMN is over-powered because,
Clear Mind V:
Summoner Level 70
Black Mage Level 75
Scholar Level 76
White Mage Level 80

Take a look. White Mage gets Clear Mind V last out of all the jobs, before level 76-80 they weren't even considered. Black Mage DOES have access to spells like Aspir and Aspir II, so again, that makes BLM over-powered, just like Summoner.

I do agree that MNK & WHM can run just about everything duo without anyone else. I know this for a fact because my buddy (MNK) and I (WHM) do just that.

[Alkimi]

Okay, again, you are not paying attention. Natural Refresh. WithOUT the use of support jobs or armor.

I won't be happy until I can get a definite answer.

Ok fine, let's say SE give you a 2/tick auto-refresh on WHM. Hell, let's make it 3/tick.

If you were running out of MP before then 3/tick auto-refresh (60MP a minute) is not going to save you. You'll still run out of MP. Some of the best WHMs have posted already saying it's not needed but for some reason you continue posting.

You're not going to get your 'definite answer'.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

So, according to your logic, SMN is over-powered because,
Clear Mind V:
Summoner Level 70
Black Mage Level 75
Scholar Level 76
White Mage Level 80

Take a look. White Mage gets Clear Mind V last out of all the jobs, before level 76-80 they weren't even considered. Black Mage DOES have access to spells like Aspir and Aspir II, so again, that makes BLM over-powered, just like Summoner.

I do agree that MNK & WHM can run just about everything duo without anyone else. I know this for a fact because my buddy (MNK) and I (WHM) do just that.

No, they are not.

Lord almighty. Summoner gets auto-refresh because they can't rest/heal like WHM can.

Whether they got Clear Mind V before the cap or not is irrelevant, as they have it now, and before that they'd have had IV so still would heal a lot of MP, and they'd have the time to rest/heal.

Lowman you can rest/heal, and in a party situation you'd have a RDM, BRD or COR giving you Refresh so there is no need whatsoever to NOT include that and equipment, unless you suddenly want to WHM naked.

WHM does not need auto-refresh or a method to give it to themselves when whether you like it or not, they have subjobs to do it. You're never going to be "whm/no subjob" EVER. So taking a subjob out of the equation is like taking job abilities, or traits out, only difference is outside of some occasions NOTHING can remove subjobs, like amnesia can remove abilities.

You genuinely need to stop the Natural crap, who the hell cares, you're going to have a subjob, and you're going to have equipment. This is how the game works, RDM gets Refresh I and II, and have to pay/hunt to learn it, like you pay to use equipment. By that logic RDM doesn't get Refresh "naturally." So they therefore should as well.

[Simian]

Ok Wolfe,

WHM has no natural refresh ability according to your definition...though our definitions of what "natural" is differs a bit....

But the question has now become, "Do you feel they need it?" or has this been a long exercise of overstating the obvious?