WHM Have NO Natural Refresh Capability, WHY?

[Rya]

Such anger! I like it! Now use it for KILLAGE! MWAHAHAHA!!

Mystic Boon is what WHMs get. It's mega-huge. And as if that weren't enough, we got Dagan for guaranteed returns (though they might be smaller).

[Wolfe]

Such anger! I like it! Now use it for KILLAGE! MWAHAHAHA!!

Mystic Boon is what WHMs get. It's mega-huge. And as if that weren't enough, we got Dagan for guaranteed returns (though they might be smaller).

WHM are NOT supposed to be a DD job, so how do they get TP? Whats more, unless you have ACTUALLY leveled your club skill, how are you going to hit the mob and GET TP? The theory behind that being a great way to get MP back is flawed, severely, which is why I left it out completely. You can not get MP back if your club skill is not leveled, you need a decent club to begin with and the best healing boost weapons are staves. Which you ALSO need to skill up if you want to be able to effectively use Spirit Taker.

[Flyinghippress]

WHM are NOT supposed to be a DD job, so how do they get TP? Whats more, unless you have ACTUALLY leveled your club skill, how are you going to hit the mob and GET TP? The theory behind that being a great way to get MP back is flawed, severely, which is why I left it out completely. You can not get MP back if your club skill is not leveled, you need a decent club to begin with and the best healing boost weapons are staves. Which you ALSO need to skill up if you want to be able to effectively use Spirit Taker.

A good WHM in Abyssea will have club skill leveled to proc Blue!! with Hexa Strike so this argument doesn't really hold up.

I personally never have an MP issue as WHM/RDM inside or outside of Abyssea. I used to always just /SCH before cap rose and I do still think it's a good sub but I just prefer the mindless casting of Refresh and not having to worry about a sublimation being dispelled (used to happen to me a lot).

Edit: And my best guess to answer your question is that up until the game got turned into Easy-mode there was still a need to keep people taking time to level up. Longer they take to level up the longer they play, the more money they make. The more you have to rest the more time it takes. Having a RDM or BRD in the party was always standard to make sure resting time was lowered. This forced some sense of teamwork (SE's premise for FFXI) essentially rewarding you for doing what they wanted you to do.

[Wolfe]

A good WHM in Abyssea will have club skill leveled to proc Blue!! with Hexa Strike so this argument doesn't really hold up.

I personally never have an MP issue as WHM/RDM inside or outside of Abyssea. I used to always just /SCH before cap rose and I do still think it's a good sub but I just prefer the mindless casting of Refresh and not having to worry about a sublimation being dispelled (used to happen to me a lot).

Edit: And my best guess to answer your question is that up until the game got turned into Easy-mode there was still a need to keep people taking time to level up. Longer they take to level up the longer they play, the more money they make. The more you have to rest the more time it takes. Having a RDM or BRD in the party was always standard to make sure resting time was lowered. This forced some sense of teamwork (SE's premise for FFXI) essentially rewarding you for doing what they wanted you to do.

Actually, it still holds up. If you have club leveled enough to proc blue, you are NOT going to melee on the mob and feed it TP. If you do, you are an idiot. You will pop a wing or have a regain atma on for TP or, heaven forbid, have a SAM feed you TP. Which leads me right back to where I was, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET MP?

If all you are doing is proc'ing blue, how do you get MP back? Mystic Boon, right? Oh, wait, that's right, you don't use it because you are just there to proc blue. BUT, MP in Abyssea is not an issue. I am talking about outside Abyssea (that still exists, right?). Even though not many people like to do stuff outside Abyssea, there are still some dedicated players that want to complete the rest of the game.

Anyway, you are missing the point of this thread. WHM have no natural refresh and never have. Before and after Abyssea, there is STILL no refresh. Why have they still not addressed the issue? Pre-level 80 increase, you could truly see how screwed WHM got. Now you can finally see that they are "trying" to fix WHM because they realize that they have no way to get MP back, save for lolddwhm'ing. Everyone knows that you can grab a support job and get some kind of MP recovery. But I want to know why WHM by itself can not refresh. If WHM could get some form of natural refresh, it would be great to see what you could do with different support jobs. Because as of right now, all WHM gets to sub is RDM for convert and refresh, SCH for sublimation and light arts, and BLM if you are really bored and want Warp II access. I suppose you could sub SMN for avatars for S&G's.

And the point of "easy mode" for FFXI was that they were trying to break the game so that people would hate it and switch over to FFXIV. Thus why they didn't release just another 5 levels, they are releasing everything they have been holding back for their "rainy day." But after realizing that FFXIV bombed so hardcore, now they have to work on making FFXI NOT suck and are having a hell of a time doing it. I'm still waiting for them to release Rank 15, it's already in the data files, and has been for years.

[Rya]

WHM are NOT supposed to be a DD job, so how do they get TP? Whats more, unless you have ACTUALLY leveled your club skill, how are you going to hit the mob and GET TP? The theory behind that being a great way to get MP back is flawed, severely, which is why I left it out completely. You can not get MP back if your club skill is not leveled, you need a decent club to begin with and the best healing boost weapons are staves. Which you ALSO need to skill up if you want to be able to effectively use Spirit Taker.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I think SE gave us Boon/Dagan ... to encourage us to get creative and open-minded. You can't melee everything, but BLM&DRK can't aspir everything. When you -CAN- take full advantage of these WS's, the returns on them are gamebreakingly good! We're talking filling your MP bar way more often than a RDM can convert, inside or outside Abyssea.

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be spiffy to see a "Panaloon Mastery" trait that gave us the Orison-Pantaloons-style cash back rewards on qualifying MP purchases (Converts x% of "Cure" amount to MP) or something.

But, you should at least try killaging before you write it off as useless or irrelevant or whatever. It's really fun and efficient, if you can adapt your playstyle.

[Wolfe]

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I think SE gave us Boon/Dagan ... to encourage us to get creative and open-minded. You can't melee everything, but BLM&DRK can't aspir everything. When you -CAN- take full advantage of these WS's, the returns on them are gamebreakingly good! We're talking filling your MP bar way more often than a RDM can convert, inside or outside Abyssea.

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be spiffy to see a "Panaloon Mastery" trait that gave us the Orison-Pantaloons-style cash back rewards on qualifying MP purchases (Converts x% of "Cure" amount to MP) or something.

But, you should at least try killaging before you write it off as useless or irrelevant or whatever. It's really fun and efficient, if you can adapt your playstyle.

I am not writing it off as useless or irrelevant, WHM are squishy jobs and not meant to DD. That does not mean that you can not DD. I have a friend that is an amazing DDWHM, him and another friend used to run around as RDM & WHM and duo stuff all the time, the WHM was the tank and DD (I know, when you look at the jobs you kind of wonder why the RDM was not the DD). He was a great DDWHM and I am actually working on gearing a DDWHM myself, just because it is fun. WHM will never be able to put out the kind of damage that the real DD jobs can, but it is still fun.

But I still stand by my previous statement, WHM need a natural refresh. They do not have one and I believe that if they did, the job would have so many other possibilities. I know I could use a few WS to recover MP, but if you are going DDWHM, you are trading off a lot of damage for a chance to recover some MP and even then, not that much. If you choose the right mob, yeah you can refill your MP nicely. But it is a crap shoot that is not worth the effort when you can just get a friend to kill the mob in a 1/10th of the time. And unless you have your club skill capped (or close to), you are not going to put out any damage and fighting mobs is going to be insanely slow.

I have a pretty decently geared DDWHM and even a DRG75 with gimp gear can out DD me and usually kill at least 3 times the mobs (tested with a few lolafdrg75). Yes, WHM can DD and recover MP. But in the amount of time that it takes to kill a mob, you might as well just quit.

[Rya]

Using melee as an MP recovery method means you're in "hybrid mode" (not trying to outdamage anyone). Any damage you do is just an added bonus, so don't worry about that. Besides, it's not the Booning that slows your damage potential, it's the constant casting! The fact that you're doing your duties, automatically means you're efficient ... damage is a bonus.

Boon should give you enough MP to keep going (speaking from experience, and even pre-relic), but if you want something guaranteed, use Dagan. It's like Starlight/Moonlight (can't miss, self-target), but gives way more MP! A little swapping should give you at least 250mp (every time!).

I have a pretty decently geared DDWHM and even a DRG75 with gimp gear can out DD me and usually kill at least 3 times the mobs (tested with a few lolafdrg75). Yes, WHM can DD and recover MP. But in the amount of time that it takes to kill a mob, you might as well just quit.

We must play differently, because I never had that much trouble out-damaging gimpy DD's, even before relic or KC.

However, I'm not saying everyone should DD on WHM ... it's an uphill battle and a hobby for masochists. No, I'm saying you can melee in a lot of cases (don't compete) just to get MP back, and it's very efficient!

Disclaimer: Most of my experience is pre-abyssea, but you seemed more interested in "outside-abyssea" applications anyway, so I think we're okay there.

Remember: I compared it to Aspir. Just like BLM&DRK, we can't always do this for our MP.

Get this Anti DD whm sacrilege out of here. You obviously just suck at it if you cant outDDanything as whm if this point in the game.

<3

[Alkimi]

I have a pretty decently geared DDWHM and even a DRG75 with gimp gear can out DD me and usually kill at least 3 times the mobs (tested with a few lolafdrg75). Yes, WHM can DD and recover MP. But in the amount of time that it takes to kill a mob, you might as well just quit.

Can DRG75 consistently pull off 2-4k WS and get to 100% TP in 3-4 attack rounds? I know it's not useful for everything (The TP spam from KC pretty much probably does more harm than good on NMs) but in xp alliances especially it's a lot of fun and bar a few people with empyrean weapons I've never been beaten on WHM even when main healing and keeping all the DDs hasted.