Nyzul Isle Uncharted information and feedback

[SpankWustler]

One thing to note is, presumably, it is just as possible to get lucky as it is to get unlucky when it comes to the new Nyzul. A group of people who hate learning stuff about FFXI would eventually hammer their way to Floors 40/60 for level 60 equipment through the power of that "statistics" thing they hate so much.

They wouldn't end up with as much stuff as a group able to hit 60/80 and work on stuff that way, but they would still get the stuff and could eventually fill up on it with enough time invested. Floor 40 is possible, although very unlikely, after only five lucky jumps.

Also, while Floor 60 equipment isn't amazing, it fills exactly the same niches as Floor 80 and Floor 100 equipment if a player has nothing for that purpose currently. For jobs with bad options for that niche at present, even the Floor 60 stuff might win.

"I only lose because I'm not a cheating botter scumbag who rapes children"

[Scribble]

The real carrot isn't supposed to be the gear. It's supposed to be the increase in skill, teamwork, and tactics required to get said gear. The goal is for people to be improving themselves as players, and frankly no one who hasn't already done so will bother if they're able to get everything while maintaining a horrendously gimp attitude.

It doesn't take spectacular gear or 3PP to hit floor 80. It just takes a basic understanding of game mechanics and teamwork.

Sure it takes 'skill'(whatever the hell that means) teamwork, cooperation and communication ect., but we could do without the luck factor being so big a part of the event. Prior to the changes (and after them to an extent) luck played a bigger role than all of the aforementioned. It remains to be seen how the changes will affect this event, but luck is still going to be a large factor.

I agree with the idea that it should take more than being present to clear content, but I don't agree that you should need so much luck, especially when we all know that luck is completely independent of how geared, 'skilled' or competent your group is. Nyzul's implementation doesn't support that style of gameplay with random floor jumps.

If you wanted to 'separate the men from the boys' so to speak, force groups through floors by progression. If you aren't good enough to progress through increasingly tougher challenges, you don't deserve better gear; not because you got shitted on by RNG.

[Greatguardian]

Sure it takes 'skill'(whatever the hell that means) teamwork, cooperation and communication ect., but we could do without the luck factor being so big a part of the event. Prior to the changes (and after them to an extent) luck played a bigger role than all of the aforementioned. It remains to be seen how the changes will affect this event, but luck is still going to be a large factor.

I agree with the idea that it should take more than being present to clear content, but I don't agree that you should need so much luck, especially when we all know that luck is completely independent of how geared, 'skilled' or competent your group is. Nyzul's implementation doesn't support that style of gameplay with random floor jumps.

If you wanted to 'separate the men from the boys' so to speak, force groups through floors by progression. If you aren't good enough to progress through increasingly tougher challenges, you don't deserve better gear; not because you got shitted on by RNG.

I already defined skill in an earlier post in this thread and have absolutely no desire to repeat myself. Remove all luck from the equation and you cannot have skill, as there will be nothing that cannot be accounted for in advance or beaten via mindless repetition a la Old Dynamis.

The issue is not random floor jumps. It was always the low likelihood of hitting 100, to the point where it was extremely unrewarding and unlikely for even the best groups to win.

Add more tangible rewards to 100 (gear token), make it easier for skilled groups to hit the floor (stopper), and you've fixed the two biggest problems with the event.

Luck? Luck will always exist. It is required in order for skill to exist.

With the changes being made to the event as they stand now, any skilled player can get Fl100 armor. Assuming they don't screw that up, there's no need for any more crying about luck. Hitting a consistent floor 80 isn't hard and doesn't require luck. Could you get screwed by the RNG and only make the 60 boss on occasion? Sure, but only rarely. And at that point, who cares?

To add: The only way there could be any "difficulty" or "skill" involved in "Progression" with Nyzul is if they made all the monsters on floor 80+ have 100,000 HP and Spike Flail and other stupid shit, making it legitimately difficult to clear 5 floors at a time (most good groups can clear 15-20 normal floors). If you want to preserve difficulty while adding progression, higher floors will need to be so god damn difficult that most people would try them and wipe over and over and over again and never beat them. But then you'd just complain about that, wouldn't you?

Tedium is not difficulty. It never has been and never will be.

[Raksha]

Luck? Luck will always exist. It is required in order for skill to exist.

I don't think this is necessarily true. If two people were in a number-adding-contest there would be no luck involved, but it would still be a skill-based contest (the person who practices more would have an advantage, for example).

[Greatguardian]

I don't think this is necessarily true. If two people were in a number-adding-contest there would be no luck involved, but it would still be a skill-based contest (the person who practices more would have an advantage, for example).

This is like calling Deep Blue a skilled chess player. He's not, by the way. I'm acquainted with one of the men who built him, and even he'll agree that Deep Blue was anything but smart or skilled.

[FrankReynolds]

This is like calling Deep Blue a skilled chess player. He's not, by the way. I'm acquainted with one of the men who built him, and even he'll agree that Deep Blue was anything but smart or skilled.

The difference is that dumb ass deep blue will make the same correct move every time. Humans will fuck up from time to time and require no luck or lack of luck to do so. Just knowing the pattern isn't enough for humans. We don't require bad luck to create a skill curve.

[Nala]

oh wow... my dev track bar doesn't seem to work all the time, i totally missed camate's post about this, i'm almost excited about neo nyzul now... waiting on official announcement on how it's going to be changed before i actually get my hopes up over nothing though.

[Hunewearl]

I already defined skill in an earlier post in this thread and have absolutely no desire to repeat myself. Remove all luck from the equation and you cannot have skill.

Salvage pretty much destroys your whole reasoning. Less so nowadays, but the concept itself does.

I'm pretty sure that there are 20 other examples countering this rather poor logic, but you get the picture.

Looking forward an update on this event, it really needs it.

[Raksha]

This is like calling Deep Blue a skilled chess player.

No it isnt.

Computers don't need skill because computers can't make mistakes (with caveats).

Being able to complete a task in the fastest time and/or with the least amount of errors or waste is a measure of skill.

EDIT: an in case anyone tries to argue semantics with me, let me quote wikipedia:

A skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both.

[Scribble]

I already defined skill in an earlier post in this thread and have absolutely no desire to repeat myself.

Ok Webster...

Luck is an outside influence, either good or bad. Skill, regardless of interpretation, is solely based on the influence of the player. As it relates to Nyzul, luck dominates skill. You can have poor skill and still be lucky enough with mob types, floor types and random floors to get where you want to go. You can also have 'skill' or near perfect execution and get screwed by bad luck with mobs, floor types and random jumps. Other people may have been crying about it, but I was just pointing out that skill doesn't or at least didn't play as much a part as you were representing.

If you want to preserve difficulty while adding progression, higher floors will need to be so god damn difficult that most people would try them and wipe over and over and over again and never beat them. But then you'd just complain about that, wouldn't you?

Did you read my suggestion at all? I suggested 20 floor progression for normal groups with skilled groups taking on more at a time. You yourself say that good groups can clear 20 normal floors, why would this be an issue? Where does your idea that the floors need to be incredibly difficult come from? Each progressive boss should be harder ie. 100 > 80 ect.

Tedium is not difficulty. It never has been and never will be.

Now this I can get down with. It's the cornerstone of the XI vs. WoW difficulty argument. No one wants Nyzul to be boring, but relying on /random instead of communication, teamwork and execution isn't exciting. There's enough randomness in which floor/mob type you get. Random floor jumps just saturates it. Why have an option to go up one level at all unless you're a floor short of a boss?